General Discussion
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11/05/2012 11:40 PMPosted by Onionrings
The game isn't all about handouts, you have to work to obtain top quality gear.

Nobody is asking for handouts. We want an alternate way to "work" for the gear. You really think doing the same mindless dailies over and over and over is more work than successfully completing group content with random strangers you've never met before, and likely will never meat again?

Tedious != hard.

In this case it apparently is both.

I am assuming that Blizzard has gone to the side of "fairness" and made everyone work on the same type of basic reward system to attempt to rekindle BC-era glory days and see just how many folks were willing to put their money where their mouth was when crying about the good old days (Blizzard should never listen to those people imo, they will instantly find something else to whine about, or only enjoy themselves by watching the "plebians" suffer).

Wanting an alternate system is understandable, not everyone likes dailies (I am getting sick of them myself, especially all the "kill X, Y, and Z" as a healer with no DPS gear for his OS). The problem is that Blizzard is most likely worried about making it feel "equal" to dailies. Equal amount of dedication, time put in, and so on. I doubt that's easy to do, and might be a lot of work, and people might end up having problems with that too, and want something else again, bringing it back to square one. I can just see the "Even dailies were better than this" threads now.

I like the idea mentioned earlier about making tabards award rep and become BoA, but I think that ultimately that would lead to an "empty world" again when everyone grinded a tabard and passed it around to whatever alt. Then again, people might just stop leveling alts when they think about the idea ofgoing through this daily grind again (I am NEVER going to do this crap again when i am done, just saying Blizzard).

I would like to see Lesser Charms be put to better use, I find their current implementation sloppy at best. Why all the emphasis on doing things outside of raiding and rewarding these charms when they are only used for raiding and anyone who is actually interested in dailies and exploration and whatever has literally no use for them? Why is it ok to grind these dailies for so long for these gear options but grinding Helm and Shoulder enchants are a nono? I don't really understand some of these things, they seem hypocritical at times.
Doing dailies every day can be frustrating, especially when there are LOADS of other players in the area doing the same quests as you. Even more so if you are on a limited play time. Do I get frustrated? Hell yeah I get frustrated but it is what it is. When I got this character to 90 I didnt do dailies for a while, I just focused on scenarios to get some better gear so I could get in to heroics. I got the gear I could from heroics and moved into LFR. Now that Im not in need of gear from heroics Ive slacked off on those and started doing all of the dailies for the reps I want to grind. I still cap valor easily and I still get valor upgrades. Hell, I even get extra loot rolls in LFR and on the Sha fight.

What I see here is a whole lot of kvetching and a distinct lack of constructive criticism and feedback. If you dont want to work towards being the best you possibly can be, thats fine it is after all your choice. While I do get a little frustrated with how slow the rep gain feels I realize that its really not that huge of an issue. I think the bigger issue is that there are so many people competing for the seemingly scarce mobs in some areas. Maybe its just my realm, I wouldnt know since I dont play a max level toon anywhere else, or maybe its that way across the board. What I do know is that having to wait for mobs to spawn only to have someone come through and grab every mob in the area is far more frustrating than having to wait a few weeks to be able to buy a valor upgrade. Especially when you consider the fact that our valor cap is relatively low and being able to buy one upgrade takes at least 2 weeks running dungeons and doing dailies.
11/06/2012 12:00 AMPosted by Septimusian
This volume you're talking about is non existant.

Maybe if you've been living under a rock for the last month or so, sure. Or you're just burying your head in the sand. Which it is, I don't know.

For the record: I'm at least revered with every main faction, minus the celestials. I just choose to not ignorantly ignore what is obvious.

The thing is, it isn't obvious. The same people keep yelling about dailies, if that is volume to you, then fine. He's saying that only Blizzard knows how many people are actually unhappy about dailies. On my server, it looks like most of the player base is liking it fiine.

There are around 10 million playing? If there were so many people unhappy with dailies, the forums would be swamped and threads would move off the front page too fast to keep up.

Seeing a few threads a day, made by the same people, with the same people posting in them everyday, isn't volume.
what nobody seems to be talking about is how much more mandatory dailies will be in 5.1. Although tedious, dailies will remain the quickest and easiest way to cap out VP, VP is capped at 3000 max and 1000 per week. The first daily heroic gives 80 VP, and 40 VP for every random heroic afterwards. Dailies give 5 VP per. LFR gives 90 then 45. Now lets take a look at how much time each method takes. To clear the full golden lotus area at revered takes about 20 minutes, thats around 12 quests which is 90 VP. To do a heroic takes about 15 minutes in queue, and an additional 25-30 minutes to clear. (Assuming like the majority of players you are a DPS class.) LFR is more random, takes 5-15 minutes in queue and can take anywhere from 25-35 minutes depending on how well your group does.

Now for the math: thats 20 minutes for 90 VP from dailies, 40-45 minutes to earn 80 VP from your first heroic and half that following the next one, and 30-50 minutes to earn 90 VP from your first LFR and 45 for your next one. Obviously dailies are the better choice for someone who doesn't have all the time in the world to cap out.

Why will it be necessary to cap out in 5.1? For the sake of this argument lets create an imaginary man named Steve. Steve likes to play WoW when he has the time, not only does he raid in a moderately casual guild he also partakes in arena combat or RBG's. Steve is a competitive person and likes to be on equal footing with everybody else. He doesn't really care about dailies or capping VP for that matter because there are no upgrades for him in LFR or from the rep vendors. With the new changes in 5.1 regarding upgrading your gears item-level, Steve will be forced to cap 1000VP every week if he wants to remain on equal footing not only within his guild, but also in arenas and RBGS. When he is done capping out on VP he is going to have to farm honor to upgrade the rest of his gear. This cycle repeats itself until Steve has upgraded not only his pvp gear but also his pve gear.

As we can see from Steve's predicament, he has to upgrade 30-32 pieces of gear. For each set that would be a total of 120-128 ilevel. Now imagine the sheer gear gap between someone who capped out every week and someone who didn't. This would not only cause the latter to not do as much DPS as their guild, it would cause them to be at an inherent disadvantage in pvp. While this is a problem that would go away eventually as you slowly capped out, it would be a present and persistant problem for the weeks or months until then.

What i think should happen is that Blizzard should re-evaluate the time spent-VP gained formulas they have for the three different methods, not only substantially increasing the amount you get from normal mode raids, but also from dailies LFR and heroics. The numbers should also be more accurately tuned for the amount of time each method of earning VP takes. If you read this giant well meaning wall of text i salute you and thanks.
Dailies are garbage
My account has been canceled
Haikus are more fun
That's a fair point and I'll honestly think about that more as I'm flipping through the front page of the forums.

This is also a good time to remind people you can email with your thoughts on our methods of community engagement. The posts in this thread commenting on my performance as a Community Manager, positive or negative, are better sent to my superiors so the topic of the thread stays on course. You can also personally give me feedback or chat with me on Twitter: @CM_Zarhym. I promise I at least read every tweet, and respond as often as I can. ;)

56 minutes ago

I was going to post this in another thread on a similar topic, but it was locked before I had a chance to.

Here's the problem. Between us players and the devs, there exists a buffer - CMs. The players bring up concerns and there is absolutely zero way for us to know if the devs heard those concerns UNLESS one of two things happens:

1. The Devs post on the forums themselves (which is a rare occurrence) discussing a specific issue.

2. The CMs post information on the devs behalf about an issue which was discussed.

When the development team discusses a topic or an issue amongst themselves, the players are in the dark about whatever it is unless one of the two things happens. Likewise, when the players discuss a topic or an issue amongst themselves, they are in the dark about whether or not the Devs are aware of an issue unless one of the two things happens.

Now, I understand that you guys 'try as hard as possible' to inform the player base of issues and upcoming changes, but with every patch, it feels like the REAL issues which need to be addressed, are completely ignored by the development team. What makes that worse, is the fact that you guys choose to address things which aren't even issues, and make changes that don't even need to be made.

This makes it really difficult to have any faith in the development of this game, and that's when most people decide it't time to move on. I love this game, I've played it for 8 years, and I don't want to let it go just yet.

But at this point, I don't know what else to do. What guarantee can you give us, your loyal fans, that our concerns are really being heard and will be addressed at some point in the future?
If this post didn't warrant a blue response then perhaps you should not have responded. I don't post on this forums often, very much at all honestly. When i do it's usually because I'm completely taken aback by the types of responses made by blizzard representatives and the general direction this company is moving. You folks will soon find you're not untouchable, it might not be tomorrow, it might not be a week from now but you will find that sitting on your high horse will only continue to degrade what little respect people have for you as both game developers, customer relations and good people in general.
I wouldn't prefer copy and paste answers to a real persons heartfelt and grounded response. However as with everything the street goes both ways. We are the paying customer, we are the majority and we keep you employed. The posts and lame announcemts once every year from blizzard thanking it's customers for their support is inadequate as the general feeling I get (a have seen from multiple posts from others) that we don't feel that way.

You can't please everyone, but you folks need to realize that perhaps your method is not always going to work and that it isn't always the best. I have to say that I've enjoyed indie game companies and their communities most recently than I have ever with blizzard. My fond memories of diablo and vanilla wow have been shattered by Disappointing patches, changes, expansions, games and community relations. Heck my last GM ticket was rife with insinuations from the GM and was anything but respectful. The tone changed when I conveyed my disgust.

Just like some forum goers, perhaps a blue should sit back and think harder next time if they too should bother posting and if it is in the best interest for both their customer, community and game.

-an increasingly disappointed customer

I couldn't agree more. Very nicely said.
I play the game to have fun. Doing the same thing over and over again, not fun. No fun, no game.

I think that's where it's headed, dear blue person.
11/05/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
I don't think you should either. Sure, I know people have commitments to friends and guilds. There are social expectations and demands put on players to be at a certain progression point, or completing X/Y/Z every week in order to be included in raids.

Having a lot to do in game is a good thing, and in that way, Mists of Pandaria has delivered on the "stuff to do" front.

My only complaint is that it simply takes too long to cap VP. Now, this is not something I would care about if it weren't for the gear upgrading thing presumably being added in 5.1. This, I feel, will ultimately not be good for the game if it can be used on raiding gear. If it can only be used on VP gear, cool, no complaints... from me. If it can, though, acquiring VP is just simply way too slow, especially considering there's a cap that makes me (and many others) feel like we "have to cap" every week. What if I want to cap twice this week 'cause I'll be busy next week?

At any rate, though, VP upgrading should be VP gear only in my opinion... or VP should be more forgiving to acquire in a timely fashion.

Regarding the upgrading system, though, along with elder charms, loot distribution in an organized group (25s specifically) is getting pretty complicated and annoying. This kind of thing could use simplification, not complication.
11/05/2012 09:42 PMPosted by Infernalist


...I think you lack an understanding of the difference between 'some non-instant progress' and 'grind'.

Here, lemme give you a guided tour of Aion, whaddya say?


I demand an apology.

And cookies.

And a /waggle.

OH wow, no you didn't. I just looked for the wall of text and pulled it out of your quote of it. My apologies, Infernalist!

/homemade white chocolate macadamia nut cookies

...erm...I'm not a Draenei. How about /bounce!
-Game offers additional bonus attempts at gear if something did not drop for you
-Don't want to work for the additional unnecessary bonus rolls

No one arguing for another way to earn these has a legitimate argument. Don't want the extra rolls? Don't work towards them. Three extra rolls per week is not game-breaking or required to complete content. You're just greedy and lazy.
11/05/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Zarhym
Is the only way to get the Elder Charm Coins is by doing dailys by getting 90 of the good coins and turning them into 3 elder...? that sort of forces u into dailys if so.. because u know people want that extra chance in Raid to get the gear so your know there going do dailys to get a silly coin that doesnt even help one bit gg..

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O

We can do dailies for loot, we can do raids for loot.
We can repeat dailies for loot, but we cannot repeat raids for loot.
I have to repeat something because the game gets boring, I'd rather have it drop loot.
I want to have raids be repeatable in exchange for dailies being repeatable.
Most of the disillusioned posters on this thread don't get it at all.

This is a game. Play it to have fun. If you aren't having fun, quit. No one will miss you.

Before coming to these forums, it didn't even cross my mind that people would dislike the new model of progressing your character. There was hardly anything to do in Cata as far as end game. I would log on for raid, raid, then log off as there was nothing to do once you're in full raid gear.

Blizzard finally delivers --------OPTIONAL-------content (can't stress that enough) and you people have the nerve to say "No blizzard, too much, I don't want to put effort into my character."

As I've read, many will share my opinion when I kindly say "!@#$ off." Please go play a different game that has an accepting whiny cesspool player base like CoD.

Edit: also <33333333333333333333333 Zarhym. Don't listen to the haters, you're awesome.
11/05/2012 08:17 PMPosted by Zarhym
I don't like it when my words are twisted. I put sentences together to convey a cohesive thought, so I'd prefer if you read them in context.

Kind of like the way you twisted his words? You are such a hypocrite.

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O
11/05/2012 07:44 PMPosted by Zarhym
Lol ok the point is everyone dont wanna do dailys all day every dam day : ) kk thanks. i dont mind grinding rep dont get me wrong gives me something to do... but having to do dailys to gain the rep is load of crap. tabard ftw.. gg.

Sounds good. I suggest not doing dailies all day everyday if you don't want to, then. I don't want to either. If I want to have additional pulls of the slot machine when I'm in a raid though, I'll decide if the cost is worth it, or if I'll just take my standard one shot at a boss's loot table per week.

Do I want a tabard that allows me to get credit for doing one type of content, while actually doing another (which, by itself, earns me gold and chances at loot)? It'd save me time, sure. There are so many things about endgame progression that could be changed to save me time, enough so that I wouldn't have to worry about enjoying actually playing the game to improve my character and earn things.

People who do dailies have more chance to win in raids than the rest of us and just because they do dailies. Of course the tabards would work in faction related dungeons. The rest of the post has nothing to do with the subject.
11/06/2012 01:44 AMPosted by Stills
Kind of like the way you twisted his words? You are such a hypocrite.

He didn't twist his words at all. That is exactly what the OP meant, albeit in a sarcastic overtone. If OP does not want to work for VP gear, he should not get it. He even later stated that he doesn't raid and therefore does not need gear for anything. Heck, I don't even know what he does in game. He has no pets leveled, 10k kills which is nothing, no raiding experience. Why should he be given the same rewards that I work far harder to achieve than he does?

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