Hord fight better, Ally have better tech myth

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11/07/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Crappytank
And for the heavy stuff? We got magics with mages, in all logical scenario, the Alliance should be crubstomping the Horde right now...

I'm still of a mind the Horde has the superior magical forces.

Even with Dalaran rejoining the Alliance, the Blood Elf society has been revolving around magic ever since they were Highborne. The Blood Elves are the masters of magic, and I'd be willing to bet Rommath is more powerful than Jaina, we just haven't seen him in action like we have Jaina.

Then we have the superior Shaman.

And then we have access to Voodoo, which the Alliance does not.
I think Alliance and Horde in terms of magical forces are at par on par. Blood elves may have more experience due to living longer and such. Blood Elves may have it longer but if we've noticed how good our Mages are they're not to be trifled with.
Actually tactics wise, during the civil war with rifle accuracy they learned VERY early on to NOT shoot in rows of line. Revoluntionary war yes, Civil war? No, they ran duck for cover and then peel back so they can go and reload while the next battle formation took over.

If the orcs face that in game , I don' care how superior they are in magic and grunts, they would be destroyed. Melee combat was only use if thousand upon thousand rushed the field when they are out of bullets and it was more clubbing then fighting. Which was what the rifle was use for. the bayonet was use as a spear for the rifle because it was be a waste of material to make a long full fledge sword when you can give them a tiny dagger that extend to their range juust as well.

Not only that if Stormwind and the alliance convert the entirety of their army into rifleman , which given their ability seem in game. They would curb stomp the orcs right now, if they have a technological advantage like people say then making butt wooded rifles + pressing their civilians into the army, the ones that did not make the cut with a sword would be of use holding a rifle and aiming. That should sweet the alliance numbers easily. Looks like gilneans have cannons, so using those should destroy any horde forces that come up against them like right now.

And for the heavy stuff? We got magics with mages, in all logical scenario, the Alliance should be crubstomping the Horde right now...

UNLESS the Alliance does not have technological superiority and the Horde have tech that can match the Alliance. Which would mean the whole alliance have tech advantage is a myth and a Orc is just a slighter stronger human but not unkillable and die just like anyone else.

Also tactic wide it would be stupid to have riflemen shoot into a line of footman engaging orcs because unless they are ALL sharp shooters then you hit the footman and they die. That is why archers was use for infantry, they shoot over the footman shoulders and into the second line of the oncoming enemy peppering them death.

Rifles have to be shoot in a line or from above ground and how many of that would be available when the Horde battle the Alliance?


Footmen are still a big part of the Alliance Army. They are the shield of the entire battle. Even if they used bayonets if theres orcs charging in swinging an axe theres a good chance that rifleman is going to drop dead. Same with those Gilnean cannoneers and those Magi/Priest.

Leave the Gilneans and the Dwarves to the main artillery of the Alliance and leave nations like Stormwind/Stromgarde/Theramore to the footmen role. (Theramore and Stromgarde are destroyed yes but just examples.) Dalaran will be the Alliance's main magi kingdom. Then you have the Gnomes/Dwarves/Draenei who all have some nice technology. Then now we have Pandaren who are training members of the Alliance their new fighting styles.
I'm still of a mind the Horde has the superior magical forces.

Even with Dalaran rejoining the Alliance, the Blood Elf society has been revolving around magic ever since they were Highborne. The Blood Elves are the masters of magic, and I'd be willing to bet Rommath is more powerful than Jaina, we just haven't seen him in action like we have Jaina.

Then we have the superior Shaman.

And then we have access to Voodoo, which the Alliance does not.


I'm not sure I agree.

The Alliance also has Druidism and the Light backing them up. Draenei are likely the most powerful Light wielders the Alliance has.

Not to mention that while the Horde do have Blood Elves, the Alliance still holds far more races with a much deeper history in understanding Arcane magic. (Namely Night Elves and Draenei.)

There's a lot you seem to be downplaying on the Alliance front, I'd call the factions equal when it comes to magic.
I'm not sure I agree.

The Alliance also has Druidism and the Light backing them up. Draenei are likely the most powerful Light wielders the Alliance has.

Not to mention that while the Horde do have Blood Elves, the Alliance still holds far more races with a much deeper history in understanding Arcane magic. (Namely Night Elves and Draenei.)

There's a lot you seem to be downplaying on the Alliance front, I'd call the factions equal when it comes to magic.

Night Elves have only recently readopted Arcane Magic and a quest in Azshara proves that the levels of understanding Arcane that the Highborne possess is literally child's play in comparison to the Blood Elves.

No, that's literally how the quest giver describes it. The Highborne made a type of Arcane Construct in Azshara to fight the Horde, and the Blood Elf questgiver said that type of Construct had been outlawed for thousands of years because of it's nature and how easily it can be turned. Which is why the quest giver gives you a short incantation and you turn the Arcane Construct against it's captors with a few words.

As for Draenei, Arcane magic in Draenic society isn't really played up at all. They haven't been known for their Arcane prowess like the Blood Elves, or even the Humans have.

People seem so quick to dismiss the Horde's advantages and glorify the Alliance's.
I'm not sure I agree.

The Alliance also has Druidism and the Light backing them up. Draenei are likely the most powerful Light wielders the Alliance has.

Not to mention that while the Horde do have Blood Elves, the Alliance still holds far more races with a much deeper history in understanding Arcane magic. (Namely Night Elves and Draenei.)

There's a lot you seem to be downplaying on the Alliance front, I'd call the factions equal when it comes to magic.

Night Elves have only recently readopted Arcane Magic and a quest in Azshara proves that the levels of understanding Arcane that the Highborne possess is literally child's play in comparison to the Blood Elves.

No, that's literally how the quest giver describes it. The Highborne made a type of Arcane Construct in Azshara to fight the Horde, and the Blood Elf questgiver said that type of Construct had been outlawed for thousands of years because of it's nature and how easily it can be turned. Which is why the quest giver gives you a short incantation and you turn the Arcane Construct against it's captors with a few words.

As for Draenei, Arcane magic in Draenic society isn't really played up at all. They haven't been known for their Arcane prowess like the Blood Elves, or even the Humans have.

People seem so quick to dismiss the Horde's advantages and glorify the Alliance's.


And the Horde does just the same to us Alliance.
11/07/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Night Elves have only recently readopted Arcane Magic and a quest in Azshara proves that the levels of understanding Arcane that the Highborne possess is literally child's play in comparison to the Blood Elves.


Weren't those mere students they were picking on though? You should go to places like Feralas or Felwood, where some actual REAL powerful Highborne exist, not some upstarts whom the Blood Elves took joy in overpowering.

11/07/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
People seem so quick to dismiss the Horde's advantages and glorify the Alliance's.


It's ironic that you seem to be doing the same thing since you brought up how superior Shamanism and voodoo seems to be.

I merely said they were equal.

But if I had to wager, I'd say Night Elves and Draenei are at least above Orcs and Trolls as far as Arcane understanding goes, just because of how long they've understood it. (Orcs have only just begun looking at the literature, Trolls seem to not have it played up that much.)
11/07/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Lorthuron
And the Horde does just the same to us Alliance.

Not really. I'll be the first to tell you, while Goblins are wonderful at making weapons (It's the one type of technology they make that does not have a history of malfunctioning, contrary to popular belief), the Dwarves and Gnomes have them beat.

The Alliance also has the benefit of numbers. They have a lot more people, a lot more soldiers, and a lot more resources.
11/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Talrend
It's ironic that you seem to be doing the same thing since you brought up how superior Shamanism and voodoo seems to be.


It is isnt it?
11/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Talrend
Weren't those mere students they were picking on though? You should go to places like Feralas or Felwood, where some actual REAL powerful Highborne exist, not some upstarts whom the Blood Elves took joy in overpowering.

It was at Talendris, who was fueling the Night Elves' incursion into Azshara.

11/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Talrend
It's ironic that you seem to be doing the same thing since you brought up how superior Shamanism and voodoo seems to be.

I'm not saying Shamanism and Voodoo are inherently superior to say, the Light and Night Elven Druidism. I was saying our Shamans are better than Alliance Shamans (The Draenei only picked up the craft, what, ten years ago?), and the Alliance doesn't have Voodoo.

11/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Talrend
But if I had to wager, I'd say Night Elves and Draenei are at least above Orcs and Trolls as far as Arcane understanding goes, just because of how long they've understood it. (Orcs have only just begun looking at the literature, Trolls seem to not have it played up that much.)

I can agree the Draenei would be better, but the Trolls would be equal as far as Arcane understanding goes (Their Arcane studies go all the way back to the first Zandalari Empire. However, like Draenei, it isn't played up, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Night Elves were better at Arcane).

But with the Blood Elves and Forsaken also practicing it, the Horde has the upper hand in Arcane.

Before I came to this thread, nearly everyone was just downplaying the Horde's advantages, I'm just offering a different perspective.
It really depends on how Dalaran rejoining the Alliance will play out, but I'd find it particularly unfair that the Horde has both a physical and magical advantage over the Alliance. (Rather than both factions just being equal.)

11/07/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Before I came to this thread, nearly everyone was just downplaying the Horde's advantages, I'm just offering a different perspective.


I think only 2 people have done that as far as I recall.
11/07/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Talrend
It really depends on how Dalaran rejoining the Alliance will play out, but I'd find it particularly unfair that the Horde has both a physical and magical advantage over the Alliance. (Rather than both factions just being equal.)

Well the Alliance makes up for the disadvantage with their superior numbers and technology.

Technology includes things like, better weapons and armor.
If what you ssaid is true then the way the alliance fight is completely asinine. Why would you want to cripple youself in such a fighting method using footman when you can have ten time that number of men with a hundred.time the accueacy and just needing to use only a fraction of the training.

Footman. At least a life time if trainimg, no gurantee they would hold the line imdefinately.

Riflemen. 3 momths of basic trianing for anyone and then you are assignto your battalion.
Armed with a ran weapon that can pretty much kill a heavily armored foe with a single shot.

Footman are used to hold the line and nothimg else you say.because the horde are so strong.

Yet a few bullets can bring down said foe with but a fraction of the effort. You would have to reach the riflemen to hurt him a riflemen with their numerous numbers can desgoryed them at range instantly.

Example of this if broxigar saw a squad of rifle men alone and charge them. We all know the awesomness of broxigar yet, for all of his experiment and skill it would be completely negated by a lucky shot right between his eyes or relastic, they just aim for tge part with the most mass and riddle his body with bullets.

As for learning kung fu, ask the chinese how that worked out for them in the 1800 when tge western world armwd with slow in acccurate rifles destroyed them and carved up china for themselves.

Ask the native american on how well they fare by being a strictly melee oridnted race.

The gun is the great eequalizer for the weakest to bring cos the strongest. If alliance did have tech then they would have switched to industtrial might and crub stomp tge horde back to oitland within months. Why? Because all of the front line troop would have been killed by the weakest of alliance citizen.

there is a reason why the sword fighting method became obsolete and footman if tgey can't even kill an orc or tuaren in a straight up fight then they show be replace with someone who could.
Guns in wow aren't as good as you're making them out to be. They're as good as the original firearms, which Archery was still superior to but because of the amount of training required the firearm replaced the bow.

A musket ball almost never kills a man by itself, unless it hits something important. People die from the lead poisoning and infection.
11/07/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Well the Alliance makes up for the disadvantage with their superior numbers and technology.


Possibly but I think that's a little hard to portray in the game. It seems like 5.1 showcases both factions as having equal amounts of numbers.

I personally more prefer seeing both factions having an advantage in certain types of magic.

Seeing Draenei Paladins, NE/Worgen Druids, and Holy Priests fight Orc Shaman, Shadow Priests, and Ogre Mages was a pretty nice touch from patch 5.1.
11/07/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Talrend
Seeing Draenei Paladins, NE/Worgen Druids, and Holy Priests fight Orc Shaman, Shadow Priests, and Ogre Mages was a pretty nice touch from patch 5.1.

We have Ogre Magi?

Cool
If what you ssaid is true then the way the alliance fight is completely asinine. Why would you want to cripple youself in such a fighting method using footman when you can have ten time that number of men with a hundred.time the accueacy and just needing to use only a fraction of the training.

Footman. At least a life time if trainimg, no gurantee they would hold the line imdefinately.

Riflemen. 3 momths of basic trianing for anyone and then you are assignto your battalion.
Armed with a ran weapon that can pretty much kill a heavily armored foe with a single shot.

Footman are used to hold the line and nothimg else you say.because the horde are so strong.

Yet a few bullets can bring down said foe with but a fraction of the effort. You would have to reach the riflemen to hurt him a riflemen with their numerous numbers can desgoryed them at range instantly.

Example of this if broxigar saw a squad of rifle men alone and charge them. We all know the awesomness of broxigar yet, for all of his experiment and skill it would be completely negated by a lucky shot right between his eyes or relastic, they just aim for tge part with the most mass and riddle his body with bullets.

As for learning kung fu, ask the chinese how that worked out for them in the 1800 when tge western world armwd with slow in acccurate rifles destroyed them and carved up china for themselves.

Ask the native american on how well they fare by being a strictly melee oridnted race.

The gun is the great eequalizer for the weakest to bring cos the strongest. If alliance did have tech then they would have switched to industtrial might and crub stomp tge horde back to oitland within months. Why? Because all of the front line troop would have been killed by the weakest of alliance citizen.

there is a reason why the sword fighting method became obsolete and footman if tgey can't even kill an orc or tuaren in a straight up fight then they show be replace with someone who could.


Have you seen footmen fight? They arent weak, have you quested in the Swamp of Sorrows? The Barrens? Theramore/Stormwind footman can cut down orcs and plus we have fought the orcs in going on 4 wars, we have lots of experience fighting them and that experienced is passed down from generations. If the alliance shifted to an all rifleman army it could end badly. We would be so used to fighting ranged that when and if in a battle the Orcs who are "VICTORY OR DEATH" and hardcore melee fighters charged in theres a good chance they wont be prepared to fight melee and will be slaughtered. Footmen are if not the most, one of the most important parts of a battle, and when facing an enemy like the orcs who fight to the death you need those footmen on the front lines to hold them back from cutting up your magi and artillery teams.

Would it hurt to build up some more riflemen? No it wouldnt, but leave the rifleman troops to the Gilneans and the Dwarves. They have far more experience then any other alliance nation. And it would be easier for them to train more troops. Meanwhile Stormwind has the Knights and Footmen, then Dalaran has the magi. It actually wouldnt hurt if the alliance tried to beef up on some more footmen either, with the loss of Theramore thats a lot of footmen that need to be replaced in the Alliance Army.
11/07/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
I'm not saying Shamanism and Voodoo are inherently superior to say, the Light and Night Elven Druidism. I was saying our Shamans are better than Alliance Shamans (The Draenei only picked up the craft, what, ten years ago?), and the Alliance doesn't have Voodoo.


What about the dwarves? The Wildhammer have been practicing shamanism for millennium.

Night Elves have only recently readopted Arcane Magic and a quest in Azshara proves that the levels of understanding Arcane that the Highborne possess is literally child's play in comparison to the Blood Elves.

No, that's literally how the quest giver describes it. The Highborne made a type of Arcane Construct in Azshara to fight the Horde, and the Blood Elf questgiver said that type of Construct had been outlawed for thousands of years because of it's nature and how easily it can be turned. Which is why the quest giver gives you a short incantation and you turn the Arcane Construct against it's captors with a few words.

As for Draenei, Arcane magic in Draenic society isn't really played up at all. They haven't been known for their Arcane prowess like the Blood Elves, or even the Humans have.

People seem so quick to dismiss the Horde's advantages and glorify the Alliance's.


The humans and gnomes have also been practicing magic for millennioum. Humans for two thousand years and I'm not sure how long the gnomes have been, but neither are slouches at magic. Dalaran is a city based off of magic and the study of it, while Stormwind had Karazhan which was Dalaran's equal I believe.

I know Blizzard has basically ignored the Draenei, but the lore states that they had an unparalleled arcane based civilization. There's nothing to assume that they have forgotten about that either.

You are seriously downplaying the Alliance's arcane prowess. If the Horde had the advantage of both physical might and magical ability and prowess, then why is the Alliance still there?
11/07/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Resileaf
fragile balloons full of hot air keeping the airship up in the air...


Actually warzeppelins took a fair bit of punishment before going downs unless specialized weapons were used against them.
Guns in wow are just as good as civil war era if not more so because tgey have flyimg machimes, carpet bombing abiliy and tank likee machines so riflemen can hid behind it and unload into the orcs.

In face as a hunter if you use a gun you should see the evolution of gun and weaponary. It went from musket balls to metal encase rounds so you know for a fact they have funs rhat arw vack loaders or buck shots. the alliance should switch to gun weaponary and never look back. The bow are now secondary to the guns and what you see in game is just game mexhanic.

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