The Blue Rogue: Official Class Changes/Notes

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(Last updated Sept. 19, 2013.)

Given how easy it is for misinformation to spread and how few one-stop shops we have for roguey news, I figured it might be helpful to create a place where people could go to see the latest rogue-related class adjustments and statements from WoW's developers.

So, here you go, you filthy animals.
Roundup of Patch 5.4 Changes
(Last updated Sept. 15, 2013)

More details and analyses of these changes, along with the latest news and other developments, are over on my bloggy ( OMG THIS PLUG IS SO SHAMELESS IT'S SHAMEFUL).

If you're a raider, then you'll also very much want to read Fierydemise's breakdown of the changes that will affect you most (as well as which trinkets are best for which spec):

Changes Affecting More Than One Spec

  • Ambush is getting buffed by 12%.

    • Eviscerate is getting nerfed by 10%.

      • Fan of Knives is getting a 25% damage buff.

        • Recuperate is getting buffed in two ways.
        • The ability itself will heal us for 4% of our maximum health per tick (40% total if used at 5 combo points), up from 3%.
        • The Glyph of Recuperate will boost Recuperate by 1%, up from .5%.

          • Evasion is getting a significant buff: It'll increase our dodge chance by 100% instead of 50%. To keep this from being too powerful in PvP, the duration will be reduced by a third, to 10 seconds instead of 15. (To make up for that, the cooldown will also be reduced by a third, to 2 minutes instead of 3.)

            • Paralytic Poison is getting a buff: The 4-second stun will kick in on the fourth stack of the poison, rather than the fifth.

              • Our PvE Tier 15 four-piece bonus is getting nerfed. During patches 5.2 and 5.3, the bonus on Throne of Thunder raid tier gear made it so that when Shadow Blades was active, it reduced the cost of our abilities by 40%. Once patch 5.4 hits, that reduction will only be 15%.

              Assassination-Only Changes

              • Mutilate is getting a 40% buff.

                • Dispatch is getting a 40% buff as well.

                  • Non-dagger weapons should stop dropping for Assassination rogues in LFR and heroic scenarios, fixing up an especially frustrating bug.

                  Combat-Only Changes

                  • Killing Spree (Combat) is getting a major improvement.
                  • If we have Blade Flurry off, all seven of KS's attacks will be dealt to our current target (or, if we happen to have no target selected when we hit KS, it'll lock us onto the closest "eligible" target instead).
                  • If we have Blade Flurry on (i.e., if multiple targets are within range), KS will behave the way we've always known: By teleporting us hither and yon from target to target while it's active.

                    • Sinister Strike is getting a buff, but you'll be casting it less often.
                    • The ability itself will deal about 66% more damage than it had in Patch 5.3.
                    • However, the energy cost is increasing by 25%, from 40 energy to 50 energy.

                      • Revealing Strike is getting a 28% damage buff.

                        • Vitality is getting a buff. The attack power boost we get from this passive ability will go from 30% up to 40%; its energy-regeneration portion remains unchanged.

                          • Ruthlessness, a new passive ability, will be added to the game.
                          • The ability grants Combat rogues a 20% chance per combo point to get a combo point "refunded" whenever they use a finishing move. This means that, if you cast Eviscerate with 5 CPs, you're guaranteed to get one CP back.
                          • This meant to offset the slower combo point generation caused by the higher energy cost for Sinister Strike I noted above.

                            • The Glyph of Adrenaline Rush will go away forever, and its effect will be "baked in" to the cooldown itself. This means that for all Combat rogues, whenever AdRush is active, they’ll see an 0.2-second reduction in the (normally one-second) global cooldown of Eviscerate, Revealing Strike, Rupture, Sinister Strike and Slice and Dice.

                            Subtlety-Only Changes

                            • Backstab is getting a buff. It'll do about 38% more damage than it had in Patch 5.3.

                              • Hemorrhage is getting a buff of around 15%. It goes from 140% weapon damage up to 160% with a slow weapon equipped and from 203% to 232% with a dagger.

                                • Sanguinary Vein is getting a buff. This passive ability, which increases the damage we deal to bleeding targets, will boost our damage by 25% instead of 20%.

                                Talent Changes

                                • Our entire level-60 mobility talent tier is getting buffed.
                                • Burst of Speed's energy cost will be cut in half, from 30 energy to 15. (Remember that the cost was 60 at the start of the expansion.)
                                • Cloak and Dagger's range will increase from 30 to 40 yards. (The stealth restriction looks like it's staying put.)
                                • Shadowstep's cooldown will drop from 24 seconds to 20.

                                  • Nightstalker (level-15 talent) is getting buffed. Damage-dealing abilities we use while stealthed will get a 50% damage increase, up from 25%.

                                    • Cheat Death (level-45 talent) is getting buffed. When it activates, it'll reduce damage by 85% instead of 80%.

                                    Glyphs, Glyphs, Glyphs
                                    Every class in the game is seeing a whole mess of glyph adjustments and new glyph additions in Patch 5.4. For rogues...

                                    • These Glyphs Are Being Eliminated:
                                    • Glyph of Adrenaline Rush, which has been pretty much a requirement for every PvE Combat rogue at end-game. The AdRush glyph's effects will become baseline for all Combat rogues, as I noted earlier in the Combat section.
                                    • Glyph of Debiltation, which has been used by extremely few people (either in PvP or PvE).
                                    • Glyph of Crippling Poison, which basically nobody ever uses.
                                    • Glyph of Sap, which basically nobody ever uses.

                                      • These Existing Glyphs Are Changing:
                                      • Glyph of Shiv is getting a buff: It'll reduce Shiv's cooldown by 3 seconds instead of 2.
                                      • Glyph of Recuperate is getting a buff, as I noted way up near the top of this page. The glyph will boost Recuperate by 1%, up from .5%.
                                      • Glyph of Blind is getting a very specific change that's more of a bug fix than a buff. In Patch 5.4, if you’re specced into the Dirty Tricks talent and you have the glyph equipped, your poisons and bleeds will to continue to damage your enemy while it’s Blinded. (In the live game now, if I’m recalling this properly, Glyph of Blind currently wipes out those DoT effects because that’s what it’s meant to do; it doesn’t care that Dirty Tricks is already ensures that Blind won’t break due to those effects.)

                                        • These Glyphs Are Being Added:
                                        • Major Glyphs
                                        • Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins: "Your Saunguinary [sic] Veins ability now also increases damage done to targets affected by your Hemorrhage."
                                        • Glyph of Recovery: "While Recuperate is active, you receive 20% increased healing from other sources."
                                        • Glyph of Redirect: "Reduces the cooldown of Redirect by 50 seconds."
                                        • Glyph of Sharpened Knives: "Your Fan of Kinves [sic] also damages the armor of its victims, applying 1 application of the Weakened Armor effect to each target."
                                        • Minor Glyphs
                                        • Glyph of the Headhunter: "Your Throw and Deadly Throw abilities will now throw axes regardless of your currently equipped weapon."
                                        • Glyph of Improved Distraction: "Distract now summons a decoy at the target location."

                                        PvE Gear: Tier 16 Raid Set
                                        The new set bonuses look... interesting. And they're a wee bit complicated to explain.

                                        • Our two-piece bonus grants us a buff called "Silent Blades." The buff reduces the energy cost of our next Ambush, Backstab, Dispatch, Mutilate or Sinister Strike -- let's call that ABDiMuS for short. The buff stacks up to five times (though Mut and Combat rogues will extremely rarely, if ever, see it go past one stack), and it's consumed when we use ABDiMuS. How the buff procs and the size of the energy cost reduction vary by spec.
                                        • Assassination: Get a Silent Blades stack every time Seal Fate procs. Each stack decreases the cost of your next ABDiMuS by 6.
                                        • Combat: Get a Silent Blades stack every time you get an extra combo point from using Sinister Strike while Revealing Strike is active on your target. Each stack reduces the cost of your next ABDiMuS by 15.
                                        • Subtlety: Get a Silent Blades stack every time Honor Among Thieves procs. Each stack reduces the cost of your next ABDiMuS by 2.

                                          • Our four-piece bonus also behaves differently depending on the spec we're in.
                                          • Assassination: Each time you use an ability against a target with Vendetta on it, our mastery increases by 250 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 20 times.
                                          • Combat: Our Killing Spree deals 10% more damage every time it strikes a target.
                                          • Subtlety: Every time we use Backstab, there is a 4% chance that our *next* Backstab will automagically transform into an Ambush. The Ambush temporarily replaces Backstab on our action bar, and can be used outside of stealth. (Note: The first incarnation of this bonus had every fifth Backstab automatically turn into an Ambush.)
Roundup of Official Patch 5.3 Changes
(Last updated May 22, 2013)

  • Shuriken Toss will be nerfed (mostly). Its damage doubles, but so does its energy cost, and it loses its double-damage boost at >10 yards.

    • Cloak and Dagger will be nerfed. It will only be usable while you’re in stealth — which means Sub rogues *won’t* be able to use it during Shadow Dance. (A previous plan to reduce the range from 30 to 20 yards has been reverted.)

      • Find Weakness (Subtlety-only) will be buffed in PvE and nerfed in PvP. The passive ability will have its armor reduction reduced from 70% to 50% against player opponents, but increased from 70% to 100% against mobs, bosses and the like.

        • Revealing Strike (Combat-only) will be buffed. The duration of the buff will increase from 18 to 24 seconds.

          • Blade Flurry (Combat-only) damage will be adjusted in PvP. It will no longer “double dip” from resilience or PvP Power. If you’re attacking a player with other players nearby and those other players are hit by KS’s reflected damage, that damage won’t be modified by your PvP Power or their resilience, because those things will already have been calculated in the attack against your main target. This is more of a fix than a buff or nerf, but it’ll likely increase a rogue’s KS damage in some cases and reduce it in others.

            • Glyph of Cheap Shot will be nerfed. It’ll increase the duration of Cheap Shot by half a second instead of a full second. (This, as well as the Glyph of Garrote change below, appears meant to make rogues a little less awesome with their crowd control in competitive PvP.)

              • Glyph of Garrote will be nerfed. It’ll increase the duration of Garrote’s silence by 1 second instead of 1.5 seconds.

                • Recuperate will be buffed in PvP. PvP Power will boost rogue self-heals by 40% (compared to 100% for healers and 70% for hybrids using their DPS spec). That 40% healing boost is also what other pure-DPS classes and tank specs will get. Some have expressed concerns that the Recuperate buff might not be enough to offset other PvP changes in store for 5.3.

                  • Tricks of the Trade will receive very specific tweaks that won’t impact rogues directly at all. The damage-boosting portion of TotT will no longer affect the death knight diseases Blood Plague and Frost Fever. Because of reasons.

                  Aeriwen's thread ( ) has additional analysis and discussion of many of these changes.
Recent Rogue-Related WoW Developer/CM Tweets
(Last updated Sept. 19, 2013)

Love Twitter? Sure, we all do! So do Greg Street (@ghostcrawler) and Brian Holinka (@holinka), two of WoW's lead developers. They regularly answer a ridiculous number of questions from players over Twitter -- way too many for one sane person to properly keep track of. Fortunately, I'm only half sane.

For the Twitter "threads" below, I’ve stripped out the “@whoever” part of each tweet but otherwise left them exactly as people typed them. To keep it simple (and save me a buttload of time), this post will just be a non-formatted dump of all rogue-related tweets I've seen from Blizzfolk in order (mostly, kinda-sorta) from most to least recent, with tweets in the same "conversation" (mostly, sorta-kinda) grouped together.

My bloggy at includes analyses of many of these, as well as tweets from farther back in time. If you do not visit it I shall be most wroth.

September 2013 Tweets

@SvelteKumquat: According to last night’s hotfix notes, the Killing Spree range issue should be OK now.
@SvelteKumquat: Phrasing of the hotfix note is odd, tho — suggests Blade Flurry was causing Killing Spree’s issues, which ain’t what we saw. (@Rygarius?)
@Rygarius: Blade Flurry was incorrectly modifying Killing Spree’s range depending if it’s active or not,

@SvelteKumquat: Anyone out there feel like Killing Spree’s range isn’t always working quite right? Wondering if it’s maybe a thing:
@SvelteKumquat: Thanks guys. Did quick test on PTR this a.m., and KS’s range *does* appear to differ depending on whether BF is on. Oh @Ghostcrawler… :)
@Ghostcrawler: Yeah, looking into that.

@Bailamostar: Any idea why my shroud of concealment isn’t showing up visually on my rogue anymore?
‏@holinka: all the time? Haven’t heard any reports besides this one.
‏@Bailamostar: yeah I haven’t seen it all patch
‏@holinka: I assume you mean the circle projected on the ground
@Bailamostar: yes it no longer appears
@holinka: Seems to be working for others. Not sure that anything changed there.
@Bailamostar: It just worked in a 3v3 wargame, however, it never worked on the timeless isle where I’ve been stealthing around ganking my faction
‏@holinka: We can investigate but my own tests showed it working. It could be a graphical issue.

@SvelteKumquat: Among this evening’s 5.4 hotfix notes: “Rogues can no longer use Shadowstep on Antipersonnel Cannons in Strand of the Ancients.”
‏@SvelteKumquat: Have they not been able to do this all expansion?
‏@wavefunctionp: We’ve been able to step the turrets since the battleground was implemented. One more roguey thing taken away.
@holinka: The bombs were buffed this patch. It allowed rogues to just run to the last door.
@VerainOfUrsin: I told you to make walls invincible until other walls destoryed! Now can’t wait by flag rrrrrrrrrrrr sota is lame now !@#$ that!
‏@holinka: sorry boss. Sometimes I don’t write down everything you tell me to do.
‏@VerainOfUrsin: Snark snark. I tweeted you this when we oqueued a full rogue sota that did this last patch- in hopes your fix wouldn’t nerf shs!!
‏@holinka: it will be something to consider for the future

@MikeAltamirano: nooooooo killing spree not fixed yet!!!!!!!! :(
@holinka: I’m still keeping an eye on killing spree. Not convinced its worse than any other big damage combo.

@tschakaa00: remove the GCD lock from Warrior’s plz … its soo bad to be the only class locked to 1.5sec
‏@Ghostcrawler: I suspect 1 sec GCD warriors would lead to more “I’m standing around waiting for rage” comments again.
@Seerows_Law: Monks manage 1s gcd with resource management and gcd capped. Why do you pretend like it’s impossible to work?
‏@Azreluna: He was saying it’s possible to work, but warriors are always complaining one way or the other.
‏@Ghostcrawler: Exactly. Rogues are used to not filling every GCD. For some warriors, it feels too slow.

August 2013 Tweets

@fatdraenei:, at around 8:34:50, rogue critting killing spree for 1billion on Galakras.
@Ghostcrawler: Yeah, we are aware of that bug, but thanks for mentioning.

@Flim_Ascendance: Have you guys read any of the feedback / ideas regarding Combo Points? Some interesting threads over @ MmoC
@Ghostcrawler: Yeah. I think at the high level, it's worth asking if keeping them on the target is the right design.

@Antareana: Do you really tweak class numbers based on player population of that class (buff low pop)? That’d be pretty weird to me…
@Ghostcrawler: Not really. But I use it as a counterargument frequently when players argue their class / spec is all getting benched.
@Thepsychofreak: so you lie to get rid of us?
@Ghostcrawler: You misunderstand (perhaps purposefully). I point out that their claim “no one can play X” is perhaps incorrect.
@DreyfussFrost: “I want to play my fav spec, but I don’t because it’s bad, and I’m not going to test it until you fix it.” :\
@Thepsychofreak: I don’t see anything bad in wanting to play a specific spec. Don’t we all play for fun? Each spec is different
@Ghostcrawler: It’s fine to want to play a specific spec. Challenge is making Combat and Mutilate identical on all fights.

@TheVigilate: Combat w/ bis t16 4pc: Combat w/ Bis t15 4pc: I think that’s a problem.
@Ghostcrawler: New cooldown trinket with old set bonus interaction is possibly too strong.
‏@GarethDeakin1: The problem i see their is the fact your simming possibly 60k higher than lower end classes in BiS :D‏
@Ghostcrawler: To be clear, our testing is not 100% based on simulations. Simulation has a lot of risks.

@Haileaus: Patch notes say Eviscerate got nerfed, but datamine says base dmg nerfed, AP scaling buffed. Can you offer clarity? <3
@Rygarius: I’d like to look into it. Can you link to the datamine source?
@Haileaus: (Easy) (Real numbers)
@Rygarius: You’re in luck. Caught them before they left for the weekend. AP scaling was reduced by 10% as well. Datamine was incorrect.
@m_chaud: Are you sure? The AP multiplier going from .16 on live to .18 on PTR seems like an increase, so either the tooltip is wrong or…
@Rygarius: I’m sure (unless an email comes in). Tooltip corrections are sometimes tracked incorrectly as a change on the datamine comparisons.
@Rygarius: What I got from the devs was change to Eviscerate dealing 10% less damage was across the board. There was no buff to the ability.
@SvelteKumquat: Is the suggestion here that the ability already HAS that modifier on live, and the 5.4 tooltip now reflects it?
@Rygarius: I don’t know. But having people ask about notes saying X but datamine says Y has helped catch errors in the past.
@Rygarius: I’d ask out loud for Rogues to see if Eviscerate is actually dealing ~10% less damage as noted on PTR.

@goldman1337: ever though about moving combo points to the character instead of the target?
@Ghostcrawler: Yes.

@paulgkrygsman: Hope you are enjoying your job at Blizzard so far. Just wanted to encourage you to check in on the Combat Rogue thread again 1/2
@paulgkrygsman: The thread has a lot of math/sims that point out why the 5.4 changes aren’t helping and why the T15 4 piece needs a nerf. 2/2
@devolore: I’m going to bring it up again to the devs
@devolore: for clarity, that doesn’t mean we’ll agree

@vipbrj: Looking at the 1st round of DPS tuning: Are you guys intending assassination to shine again in execute range? If so, thanks!
@Ghostcrawler: Partially, but really just Assassination was lower than intended on 5.4. I’m not sure I can explain why that is relative to 5.3.

@Rygarius: Working on Rogue DPS tuning notes now.
@thebl4ckd0g: can’t wait to read them, since that’s my main and favorite class. :D
@Rygarius: It’s mostly positive. Think you’ll like it.
@GlacialRule: but i have no rogue…..hmmm….maybe I should make one?
@Rygarius: Play whatever class you find fun imo. Class tweaks aren’t going to suddenly be -101% to damage and healing instead of damage.
@Austduskwing: So, from the coffee bird’s mouth, what are rouges looking forward to in total? *holds up an obviously fake microphone*
@Rygarius: A light blush and splash of color on the foundation but not too much as to not overpower the lipstick.

@HydraMWIst: Please don’t let the killing spree globalling go live. 0.64% (real number) of the rogue population would like it.
@holinka: Testing on the PTR has demonstrated that PvP damage/healing is too high. We will be tuning Base Resilience and Battle Fatigue.
@KymScally: any ideas on the numbers for the tuning yet?
@holinka: We’ll be increasing base resilience to 72% and battle fatigue to 55%. We’ll test and decide whether to re-tune.
[one day later -- too soon for changes to have been implemented]
@IshayuG: BM and Sub Rogue burst on PTR remain stupidly high. Killing from 100% in 3-4 seconds while enemy is CC’d. That can’t be right…
@IshayuG: Sorry, make that Combat Rogue, not Sub Rogue. Culprit is Killing Spree.
@holinka: We say a lot of specs with this performance on PTR which led to Base Resilience increase. It may take even more.

@zbreilly: Outside of time/resources, what would be the argument against Warlock-level revamps of Hunter/Rogue?
@Ghostcrawler: Turning players away from hunter and rogue. “I wanted change but not THAT change.”

@VerainOfUrsin: If you up battle fatigue and resil, be SURE to up recup some too. And probably leeching.
@holinka: Recuperate and it’s glyph have already been buffed in 5.4
@jjones186: Remember 5.2 that buffed it too 5.3 took it right back down Thats people’s worry that the bf buff will cancel out the buff to recup
@holinka: Rogues have plenty of tools for survivability #yes #isaidit

@MikeAltamirano: 100% Evasion on 2 min CD and still on Preperation. Why?
@holinka: Evasion at less than 100% just feels dumb. You hit it as a defensive button, but then 10% it doesn’t help you.
@holinka: Duration and cooldown were reduced so it could chain together for 30 seconds.
@Yasko89: then why is cheat death the !@#$test talent ever? still die instantly when it procs whynot make it 100%
@holinka: that’s a damage reduction not a chance to miss. It’s easier to predict the effects with damage reduction.

@SvelteKumquat: Missed this earlier today: @devolore explains why they’re leaving T15 4pc unchanged for Combat. I’m… skeptical.
@wavefunctionp: As am I. T15 is still going to be too strong to break, and only makes the spec again rely on certain items
@SvelteKumquat: Shadowvenom and @Fierydemise explain issues well in response (in-thread). My biggest worry’s clinging to T15 too.
@devolore: We do fully intend on nerfing the T15 bonus if it does indeed remain mandatory.

@devolore: 5.4 Combat Rogue update + request for feedback!
@fewyn: Boo combat rogues! Assassination 4 life!
@devolore: Have been playing Assassin myself lately. Took some getting used to re: energy pooling but having a lot of fun with it.
@fewyn: Honestly I find Assassination a lot easier to play and more enjoyable. Whenever I try to play Combat I feel overloaded
@devolore: was 100% Subtlety since Classic before. Trying new things, hooray!
@fewyn: I’ve never really tried Subtlety, have been meaning to give it a real go how is it compared to Combat and Assassination?
@devolore: It’s not terribly different from Assassin. More dependent on positioning, less dependent on bleeds.

@Trilumigon: You mentioned agreeing rogue specs need to be looked at. Any thing to discuss currently? Warlock level rehaul in the future?
‏@Ghostcrawler: Unlikely to be at the warlock level with vastly different resources.
‏@Ghostcrawler: More on the table would be something like one spec has Rupture, one uses Recuperate rotationally, and one uses SnD.
‏@Ghostcrawler: Note that is GC random musings, not any kind of official announcement.
@Sativ_BH: Binding recuperate to a single spec would be very bad news for rogues =-o
@Ghostcrawler: Not sure it would be Sub only, but we heard lots of feed that it was cool when Sub used it a lot.
‏@Ghostcrawler: Remember, that was a totally off the cuff example of how rogues could change. It’s nowhere near an announcement,
@Sativ_BH: Misunderstood your post. It was interesting to utilize another finisher. Being forced 2 keep Slice/Recup up sucked
‏@Ghostcrawler: Yeah, for sure. One pitch is to parcel out Rupture, SnD and Recup, but maybe that is still too similar of a maintain X feel.
‏@VerainOfUrsin: How about,all specs keeps slice and rupture, but focus on adding exciting moves with short cooldowns,or limited use?
@Ghostcrawler: So many rogues complain about SnD maintenance that giving them an opt out would be nice.

@HatredAU: why are you evading all rogue questions ? The class has had nearly no attention throughout mop, less than Shaman!
‏@Ghostcrawler: Because we’re pretty happy with rogues. We did make several talent changes throughout MoP.
@Cucaipuca: And you are happy with rogue population too, cause thay are falling down??? Changes need to hapen cause thay are outdated…
‏@Ghostcrawler: They have been dropping almost since launch. We’ve looked at the issue a lot, and two things seemed to hasten the decline.
‏@Ghostcrawler: First, it became harder to gank someone from stealth in the world. Second, we introduced DKs.
‏@Ghostcrawler: In any case, we’re not sold on the idea that overhauling rogues leads to a population increase. Not sure that worked for locks.

@1HathayaN1: Man you must check out ye rogue “combat” one shot this can’t be going live in arena the season will be rogue combat only!!!!
@1HathayaN1: and 8 sec kidney that’s more than sap/ blind
‏@holinka: I guess @ByronBernstein was playing combat on the PTR today

@Haileaus: What’s the reason for making things like Thistle Tea (+100 energy on-use) useless? IMO it adds flavor.
‏@Ghostcrawler: How many consumables do you want to be forced to juggle? Flasks, food, potions, health stones at the moment. Am I forgetting any?

July 2013 Tweets

@HatredAU: Have you guys got any plans to look at making combat the top rogue spec? playing mostly assass for 3 patches is getting old!
‏@Ghostcrawler: We wish Combat were closer, yes. In 5.2(?), we wanted to nerf C’s cleave and buff their ST, but don’t think we buffed it enough.

‏@Thepsychofreak: “Combat is for me a fun spec where i can mostly push buttons all the time, but not on PTR.”
@Thepsychofreak: “The change is pretty much short-sighted laziness from the devs”
@Thepsychofreak: don’t you think players should be excited about oncoming changes rather than stressed out?
‏@Ghostcrawler: We didn’t make this change in a vacuum. We were responding to a lot of feed that high haste made Combat too spammy.

@SvelteKumquat: Aaand following the new datamine, official 5.4 PTR notes are updated. Zilcho rogue changes. (Not a surprise; damage tuning hasn’t started.)
@Fierydemise: Really we hoping we hear about the combat changes soon. At this point it should be clear to everyone they are a bad “fix”
‏@SvelteKumquat: It’d be cool to see @devolore come back to that discussion thread with an update, but I suspect there’s still deliberation.
@wavefunctionp: Probably more of a case of, omg, how to fix without making combat look like the new fotm.
‏@Fierydemise: It really should be as simple as nerf 4pc T15, tinker with all the other modifiers (vit, RvS, etc.)
‏@devolore: I believe that’s along the lines of what we’re thinking. Not positive though.

@Deontto: Why the buff to Paralytic Poison? Rogues do not need a buff to their control.
‏@holinka: Provide some choice in that row. Hard to compete with PotW.

‏@SvelteKumquat: Hay, is there any particular reason the Assassination rogue loot-drop fix has to wait for Patch 5.4 instead of coming via hotfix?
‏@Rygarius: Depending on how the loot tables were implemented, we may or may not be able to fix it server side.
@Rygarius: Ack, I mean in this case, the fix isn’t possible w/o a client patch.
@wavefunctionp: Just for clarity. This fix will apply to all loot awards that are subject to spec selection for all content tiers?
@Rygarius: That’s the idea. Assassination notes for 5.4 PTR explains it in more detail.

@ChritznL: Holinka, where’s my old poison proc animation minor glyph? :< or coldblood animation glyph? dark warglaives during shadowblades??
‏@holinka: The poison’s used to be temp enchants on the weapons but now they are on the player so it isn’t that easy to do.
@ChritznL: Greg also thought I ment the wep enchant, but this is what I ment, do you know if it’d be easy to implement via glyph? Looks badass
‏@holinka: In his defense, I’ve heard this from no one else. It seems quite busy especially due to how often poison procs.
[12 days later...]
@ChritznL: Any word on the poison proc glyph? And is there a way to bring back cold blood animation via minor glyph aswell? Miss them glows.
‏@holinka: it won’t be in 5.4

@Divine_Namjoo: with the constant nerfs to prep/readiness/alter time, maybe it’s time you stopped putting cd reset abilities into the game
‏@Ghostcrawler: We agree. I’m not sure that design angle has payed out well.
Glyph of Adrenaline Rush Going Baseline in 5.4 (7/15)

@Fierydemise: GoAR has been replaced with GoRedirect in recent PTR build. Will the GCD reduction be baselined or removed?
‏@Ghostcrawler: Yes. We baked in GoAR.

@Henning98882021: The new Rogue glyph for Redirect removes the cd entirely. Consider making the glyph stack combopts on Rog instead for convinience?
‏@holinka: that feels like a pretty huge change for a glyph

@Bunzato: Now that we’re approaching the end of MoP. What class/classes do you think need a big overhaul in 6.0?
‏@Ghostcrawler: None. We will likely work to make the 3 hunter and rogue specs play a little more differently from each other.

@TheVigilate: Fierydemise has some raw sim date for your proposed combat changes ( Combat’s going to need more tbh.
‏@Ghostcrawler: Yeah to be fair, we haven’t tuned the damage yet. Just focused on pacing. Bandit’s Guile may need tweaking too.

@WardenEU: Will Bloody Dancing Steel enchant still be available when the new season starts? awsome if it could atleast stay.
@holinka: yes

@latteine: the fact that one rogue can stunlock and kill a healer doesn’t make them OP, does it?
‏@holinka: Not according to most rogues on twitter :-D

‏@causeimrossome: it seems for rogues this coming tier combat is looking less desirable than sub in raids. Is this the intent?
‏@Ghostcrawler: Are you basing that on anything other than DPS (which isn’t tuned for 5.4 yet)

@FernandoFerna20: So when are you guys planning to revert rogue to viablity? seriously warriors and rogues are by far in the worst spots ever.
‏@holinka: We’ve made some changes to them in 5.4 and nerfed some of the most dominant classes

@PhxTich: Played a few on the PTR as DK... BoS rogues just kited me for days, STing and NEVER getting into range. Looking like last patch..
@holinka: not a strategy I've heard is effective on live

@Aulper7: Wha? When is CnD desirable for any spec? (Not trying to argue genuinely curious as I dont see ANY rogues taking it)
‏@holinka: PvP combat rogues tend to take it
@wavefunctionp: Do you think its because since they are playing combat in the first place that they don’t know better?
‏@holinka: I’m looking at combat rogues above 2200
@Sarorz: combat rogues above 2200? You sure they’re not just offspec?
@holinka: It is the spec they finished the match in. This is not armory data.

@bob13305717: why nerf assassination rogues please… seems beyond pointless lets make a spec even more less used and…
@bob13305717: lets make it so the people that do have to change spec to sub gratz!!! >.<
‏@holinka: Where do you see a nerf to assassination?
‏@bob13305717: Eviscerate now deals 10% less damage.the datamined on mmo champion says it has took effect to envenom [Editor's note: No, it doesn't. The datamined tooltip just notes that the Evisc change applies to the Assassination spec, which is irrelevant since Mut rogues don't cast Evisc.]
‏@holinka: Datamining, unnecessarily breaking hearts since 2007

@MissBoJangles1: 5.4 aff lock pvp looks grim. so reliant on haunt means using shards 4 utility tanks damage. No other class has that huge a tradeoff
‏@holinka: Many other classes have that tradeoff
‏@MissBoJangles1: examples? None to the same extent, where main damage ability is exclusive with utility. Esp with nerfed ss rate.
‏@holinka: Rogue finishers are utility or damage. Rets choose damage or heals. Shadow priest choose devouring plague or psychic horror.

‏@steelshatter: did you consider making shadowstep baseline? Rogue mobility buffs meh. CnD and BoS are weak alone.
@holinka: We considered it, but there are some situations where BoS and CnD are desirable for some specs.

@Cacyte: Can you explain the #Eviscerate nerf? Will it be compensate with, for example, a Rupture buff? #PVE #Rogues #Combat #WoW
@holinka: We’re still exploring that change for combat. Idea was reduce burst, buff sustain.
@Sknilegap: Holinka, any answer for this one? PVE and PVP combat alike I’m sure would like to see why.
@holinka: Yes, we aren’t done

@HitThatWithThis: To illustrate my gripe. Pure DPS top specs for ToT fights:
Mage:Fi:9 A:3 Fr:0
Hunt:BM:9 SV:3 MM:0
Lock:Aff:4 De:6 Ds:2
Rog:As:12 Co:0 Sb:0
‏@SvelteKumquat: This is… Raidbots top 100 heroic?
@HitThatWithThis: Yes, H25, and I know that raidbots is flawed in many ways, but I still think this is relevant.
‏@SvelteKumquat: To me it’s reflective of the “echo” effect, yeah. Don’t disagree with your point; just leery on what “ideal” solution is.
‏@SvelteKumquat: I think back to Sub’s resurgence in late Cata. It was partly about buffs, partly fight design, but mostly about perception.
‏@SvelteKumquat: Maybe if @Rygarius just added a patch note that said, “Subtlety is now officially just as good as Assassination in raids”..
@Rygarius: Class + Spec rep is a tough one to crack. Not as simple as ‘dps is low’. Could be synergy with other specs.
@Rygarius: It’s something worth discussing and figure out if a simple buff or other tweaks are needed.
‏@HitThatWithThis: Whatever the solution, the overreaching point is rogues are the only class with 1 spec represented in heroic raids.
‏@Rygarius: There’s always the oddball scenario where the specs are balanced but ppl don’t pick it for some reason. O.o
‏@SvelteKumquat: Apologies @Rygarius, I @mentioned you into this convo after Stariian and I had already traded bunches of tweets over this.
‏@SvelteKumquat: Part of the underlying argument here is that fight design is decidedly friendlier to Mut spec than Combat/Sub.
‏@Rygarius: That’s possible too. Certain specs may fare better against a type of fight or encounter.

‏@SvelteKumquat: Hay, is there any particular reason the Assassination rogue loot-drop fix has to wait for Patch 5.4 instead of coming via hotfix?
‏@Rygarius: Depending on how the loot tables were implemented, we may or may not be able to fix it server side.
@Rygarius: Ack, I mean in this case, the fix isn’t possible w/o a client patch.

@devolore: Dinged 90 on the Rogue finally. I will stab all the things.
‏@Bashiok: inc rogue buffs amirite
Recent Rogue-Related WoW Developer/CM Interviews and Forum Posts
(Last updated Sept. 3, 2013)

I'll use this post to quote Blizzfolks' recent discussions of rogue-related issues in interviews, official forum posts and other venues where they have more than 140 characters to work with.

Explanations for Patch 5.4 Ability Changes Other Than Buffs/Nerfs (Aug. 12)
Ghostcrawler: We buffed Evasion for Rogues outright to increase their survivability against melee. We also buffed Recuperate because we agree that it went from being a potent heal in Cataclysm to a more middling one in MoP. The other core changes were really focused on Combat. We increased the cost and damage of Sinister Strike in order to help address Rogues having too much energy with high Haste values, which led to a spammy, RSI-inducing style. (It’s fine for Combat to feel fast-paced, but it had gotten out of control.) To offset the loss of combo points from less frequent Sinister Strikes, we added (or returned, depending on your point of view) the Ruthlessness passive. The other Combat change was to redesign the targeting system of Killing Spree. Killing Spree now hits a single target if used without Blade Flurry. During Blade Flurry, it continues to work as it does on live. For talents, we were worried in previous patches that we had overbuffed Burst of Speed, but clearly that is not yet the case, so we lowered its cost. We buffed the numbers on Cheat Death, Cloak and Dagger, Night Stalker, Paralytic Poison, and Shadowstep, since they were seeing less use than other talents.
( source: )

On Combat, the Patch 5.4 PTR and Rogue Spec Balance (July 11)
Lore: Combat is supposed to feel faster-paced than the other specs, but we agree that it’s gotten a bit TOO spammy, particularly where the Tier 15 set bonus is concerned. We don’t have any solid info on any changes we might make yet, but we definitely see the concern and are discussing it.

The challenge we always face when balancing between different specs that perform the same role is that, even if the benefits are relatively small, some players will feel “required” to play whichever is “best”. Even in cases where each spec has a clearly defined niche that they excel at, some players still feel like they should change specs from fight to fight to match each encounter’s mechanics.

We’re not sure it’s even possible to ever balance things out completely perfectly so that all specs are equal in all areas, but we do our best to at least minimize the differences. It’s far too early to guess at which specs will be “best” once 5.4 launches, but our goal is to allow you to play whichever you enjoy the most without feeling like you’re making a huge sacrifice.
( my blog post on this: )

"Assassination-Only" Loot Spec Problems Acknowledged (June 26)
Sapperwix: We are treating that behavior as a bug. I don't have any eta for a fix but it's something we're aware of and plan to resolve.
( my blog post on this: )

Don't Worry About Killing Spree's Damage on the Patch 5.4 PTR(June 25)
Lore: Looks balanced to me.

I kid. We generally wait until later in the PTR cycle (once we’ve gotten all the underlying mechanics where we want them) to start tuning numbers. I wouldn’t be too concerned at this stage.
( my blog post on this: )

EU CM Agrees That Recuperate Feels Weak; Will Mention to Devs (May 28)
Taepsilum: Personally, the healing effect of recuperate does seems a bit underwhelming to me, and fitting it into the rotation doesn’t feel as rewarding as it used to during Cata. As always, we’ll make sure to share your concerns with the dev team.
( source: )

What's the Role of Melee DPS in Raids? (Icy Veins, May 24)
Icy Veins: In the past, melee DPS were seen as having a significant disadvantage in heroic raiding. During Throne of Thunder, however, there are some fights where melee do very well, like Iron Qon, and others where they do really poorly, like Ra-Den. Are you happy with each having their own niche fights, or is it a goal of yours to design fights where both range and melee players will perform roughly the same?

Blizzard: Overall we like for there to be fights that favor different play styles. In Throne of Thunder, there are good fights for range and good fights for melee, and nobody is underperforming to the degree where it is widespread for guild to sit a lot of melee on one fight or a lot of ranged on the next. We agree in previous tiers that melee felt like more of a liability, but we don’t feel that way about the current content (but see the next question).

Icy Veins: Does granting range players the ability to retain more and more damage on the move (as illustrated by the upcoming Lightning Bolt changes in 5.3) make it harder and harder to design encounters where melee DPS are not trailing behind?

Blizzard: Traditionally, the melee advantage was being able to do damage while moving, but now a lot of ranged are also good at movement. We could certainly go back in and prune a lot of cast-on-the-move and instant spells from casters, but on the other hand we know players think those abilities are fun and you can even argue that having to stand and “turret” as a combat mechanic feels a little dated. There is also a continuum here: casting Lightning Bolt while moving isn’t a big balance problem, but something like passive Kil’jaeden’s Cunning might be.

Rather than making casters terrible at moving, we’d rather develop a niche that melee are really good at. For example, we could emphasize that melee are really good at cleaving multiple targets, or they could be more survivable, or both. We are going to explore these ideas more.
( my rant on all this: )

How Did the Rogue Tier 15 Four-Piece Bonus Work Out? (Icy Veins, May 24)
Blizzard: We always have issues with the server being able to accept input fast enough to support very small GCDs (say less than 1 sec or so). In this raiding tier in particular we unfortunately had some widespread server lag problems, which made it harder to evaluate whether the 0.7 second GCD alone made rogue abilities feel unresponsive. Our hunch is the low GCD solved this specific problem with tier 15, but we’re unlikely to do it often.
( my blog post on this, with clarifications: )

The Find Weakness Change: Making Spells Different in PvE/PvP (Arena Junkies, May 19)
Sam (a.k.a. Vanguards): PvE and PvP changes seem to collide very often, do you guys believe that balancing both may require a lot of specific PvP and PvE only changes? An example would be Find Weakness in 5.3.

Brian Holinka: Yes, and when we do it. Find weakness is a great example where PvE needed a buff and it would’ve cost big problems to PvP. We keep it in mind and Frost bomb is another example. We try not to do it too often, it’s a lot of things to keep track of. We’re the designers and people on Arena Junkies are really passionate players that really keep up on all the changes, but a lot of players are not. To ask our general player base that your spell does this and it does half damage or 25% or something like that, it’s really not something we want to do too often. Especially hey we want eviscerate to hit 10% less on players. That’s really inconsistent and a tough thing. We usually do it when it’s really a significant thing such as Find Weakness is 50% less and Frost bomb is 40% less.

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street: There’s also this persistent, I’ll just call it a myth, that if we just bite the bullet and make 2 versions of every spell suddenly we’ll have class balance nailed and it’ll never be a problem again. I’m pretty confident if we went ahead and split sub rogues into 2 abilities on every ability with different damage numbers you’ll still see players saying why they can’t just tune down this one ability that’s costing pvp burst problem. In other words players will still want us to make changes even if we have the numbers split up, I don’t think it’ll suddenly make players feel their class is viable in every situation

Why Rogues Are Being Nerfed (Arena Junkies, May 19)
Sam: In the history of changes a lot of nerfs and buffs are really large, which usually changes the “balance” of one class from one to another such as warrior and rogues last patch. Warriors were arguably the top notch class in 5.2 but kind of went to the bottom barrel. Rogues basically had the opposite happen to them. Do you guys think smaller changes would be more ideal or how would you look at it?

Brian Holinka: Obviously when we can we would like to make smaller changes. I think what you saw with rogues in 5.2 was that there were a lot of calls for their survival to be improved. So we made Prep baseline, took Cloak off, so they weren’t constantly unpeelable for 12 seconds, and moved it to a short CD. I think these were good changes, but what pushed rogues over the edge was we tried to create some talents to make them more attractive and give them variety. Shuriken Toss, Mark for Death, and Cloak and Dagger, those were all probably a little bit too much. 5.3 Rogues were really about reigning in those talent changes. We kept the survivability changes the same but we wanted to reign in the unpeelable Cloak and Dagger, the ranged play style of Shuriken Toss, and those were I think really smart changes. We didn’t also nerf Mark for Death and a bunch of other changes. The Find Weakness change was mainly for burst on higher armor targets. We thought that wasn’t appropriate. We made some changes in 5.2 that didn’t mean to be buffs, but for talent choices to be more interesting and we needed to reign those in.

Revisiting Rogue Talents for PvP: 5.2 and 5.3 (Legendary, May 20)
Gary Gannon: How do you feel the [PvP class] balance has been in 5.2?


Brian Holinka: I think there were some situations where we were trying to make some talents more interesting from 5.1 to 5.2. For example [...] there was a rogue ability called Versatility, and it was not really seeing much play. So we created a new one called Marked for Death. In other situations, like, for instance: [...] Preparation was another ability that we actually thought all rogues could benefit from having. So there we had to create a new one, Cloak and Dagger.

So, we were doing a lot of talent work, and in some places, we just overshot a bit. We felt like it made some classes a little bit too good and the talents were just a little bit too good, so we tried to rein those in.

We base our balance feedback on a lot of factors: We look at representations; distribution of ratings across all specs and classes; how people are faring within our team, how they’re playing; we talk to some of the very high level players on a very constant basis. We try and get a sense of where problems lie, and then we try and fix things that we feel are big problems for the overall gameplay of the game — where it just makes everybody’s life a little bit less fun — and we try and affect those.

There’s situations where maybe you can say, this or that has made this class even more competitive, but there’s also situations where this talent is just one-shotting people. So we have to look at that, and we have to understand that it’s made the game less fun to play.

Our goals are basically: try and make specs and classes competitive; try and make the overall gameplay environ fun; and then, we wanna say, try and make some talents interesting, and try and make rotations interesting and fun to play. Sometimes we make changes that are a little bit out of priority there, but that’s generally what we try to do. And I think, going in from 5.3 to 5.3, that was a lot of our goal, was to kind of rein in some of the things that got out of control.
Sticky Request

Great work on this thread btw
its sad how obviously they are trying to ignore rogues info while trying to look impartial.

whoever is in charge of rogue balance, all need freaking fired.
What a coincidence it is that I have an ENTIRE THREAD right above your post to counter your claim.

11/14/2012 09:32 AMPosted by Rfeann
@Ghostcrawler: "@Starbuck_OS Do you really think arbitrarily picking on some classes would be a logical way to design a game?"
11/20/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Rfeann
What a coincidence it is that I have an ENTIRE THREAD right above your post to counter your claim.

^^ pew pew

Great resource, Rf.
I've always been a defender of Ghostcrawler and Blizzard in general but ever since he started tweeting it's been about impossible to see where he is coming from. Makes me wonder if he just walks around all day with his eyes closed banging off the walls...
Ghostcrawler once frequented the WoW forums, engaging in back-and-forth with us sewer-dwellers and debating the finer points of nerfs, buffs, class balance and theorycrafting. Toward the end of the Lich King expansion he stopped -- in part because it was just taking up too much of his time to post so much, and in part because he began to feel like it was a futile effort: GC often found himself just arguing points with people who refused to believe what he had to say, and it frequently got pretty abusive toward him, making it almost impossible to get any reasonable discussion in amidst all the yelling.

I worry the same thing is going to happen with GC on Twitter. It doesn't matter whether the guy types 140 characters or 140 pages, there will always be people who dismiss or vilify the words he chooses to type.

Any of us can choose not to trust what GC, or what any Blizzard employee, says to us. We can say they're lying, or they're not listening to what we're actually trying to say, or they're dodging, or they're ignorant. We can say any number of accusations that basically mean the same thing: No matter what they tell us, we don't believe them.

Many forumgoers choose that path. We see it already in this thread, we've seen it in countless others, and we'll continue to see it until these forums pass into oblivion at some point in the future.

Personally? I don't see the point in wasting so much time and energy on that much mistrust and conspiracy theorism. I operate from the basic assumption that Blizzard developers and community managers want exactly the same thing we want: For the game to be as enjoyable as possible for as many folks as it can be realistically made enjoyable for. Their ideas for how to get there might not be the same as mine, but that doesn't mean they have no clue what they're doing, and it doesn't mean they're blind or deaf to my requests.

What this thread shows, in its small way (this history only stretches back several months; it doesn't include Cata-era stuff), is that there is a LOT of listening that goes on when it comes to rogues, and there is a LOT of back-and-forth, and there are a LOT of changes (most small, some large, and many of them not explicitly what players ask for in the forums) that are made or at least tested.

We can disagree with those blue posts, tweets and changes, and we can explain why we disagree. That's a valuable conversation to have.

But what I don't think we should do is stubbornly hold on to this idea that the people who make this game what it is have no idea how to make the game better. That's an easy, lazy way out of actually having a discussion about why our own personal ideas for improving the class may or may not work better than any other idea.
11/20/2012 01:00 PMPosted by Rfeann
But what I don't think we should do is stubbornly hold on to this idea that the people who make this game what it is have no idea how to make the game better. That's an easy, lazy way out of actually having a discussion about why our own personal ideas for improving the class may or may not work better than any other idea.

I don't think anyone really believes that anyone at Blizz has no idea of what they are doing; I think people are frustrated with waiting on Blizz to address the problems they have already acknowledged. They know that there are issues but they don’t have solutions and as a player it gets frustrating waiting on a solution. The whole “wait and see, we will eventually get to it” attitude doesn’t work for me.
They know that there are issues but they don’t have solutions and as a player it gets frustrating waiting on a solution. The whole “wait and see, we will eventually get to it” attitude doesn’t work for me.

WoW is stunningly massive, and changing one aspect of it can impact many other aspects. I think we too easily slip into a "how hard would it be to just do X" frame of mind with rogues, and in the process conveniently forget that:

1) There are scores, if not hundreds, of people who have their own ideas about what X should be.

2) There are hundreds of people who play *other* classes who have their own entirely separate ideas for things they feel it should be easy for Blizz to do to "fix" their class.

3) We don't actually have a clue how easy or hard it is to implement any game change. We can make assumptions, and we can (and do) assume those assumptions are right. But that doesn't actually make them right.

4) Our ideas rarely are able to take into account the effect that our personal proposed change will have on other classes, or other aspects of the game. We often just want to drop the pebble into the pond; we tend not to care about where the ripples will go beyond "this is good for rogues." Blizz developers have to care about everywhere the ripples may be felt.

We have to "wait and see" because this game has grown so huge, and is so complex, that virtually no class changes can be implemented without a significant amount of debate, analysis, careful programming and internal testing. The alternative to "wait and see" is to see class changes flung into the game like uncooked pasta at a wall; the result would be chaotic, with changes being made and unmade, class balance potentially shifting back and forth in the middle of seasons, and new bugs potentially being introduced that screw everything up even worse.

11/20/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Predation
what upsets me the most (if anything) is that there are glaring issues, bugs, exploits, etc. that have been taken advantage of for days if not weeks, then Blizzard comes out and says "Hey! We just discovered X, Y, and Z!".

Yeah, I wonder about that sometimes, too. I don't have a great answer beyond what I think Blizzfolk have already said: That 1) sometimes there are aspects of the game that function differently on beta/PTR servers vs. live, and 2) even though beta/PTR is often accessed by a good number of players, that's still only a bare fraction of folks who play the game on live, and the folks who play on test servers aren't always "pushing" on things to see if they'll break -- they're often trying out specific new mechanics or just trying to get a leg up on new content. They may not even take the time to notice or report some bugs.

It can all easily lead to unexpected surprises slipping through, even when there's a large QA team on hand (as there is with WoW). We only see the bugs that *do* slip through; we never see the who-knows-how-many bugs that are squashed throughout the programming and testing process.
11/20/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Rfeann
We have to "wait and see" because this game has grown so huge, and is so complex, that virtually no class changes can be implemented without a significant amount of debate, analysis, careful programming and internal testing. The alternative to "wait and see" is to see class changes flung into the game like uncooked pasta at a wall; the result would be chaotic, with changes being made and unmade, class balance potentially shifting back and forth in the middle of seasons, and new bugs potentially being introduced that screw everything up even worse.

Yes WoW is a complex beast, that is why there was more then 6 months of, often rapid, iteration and testing where things could be addressed but sadly in many cases weren't. I'm not going to say that we were ignored during MoP beta, we got some enlightening, if not particularly heartening, responses to some threads and there were certainly changes made for the better. At the same time however it did not feel like our feedback during beta made that much difference.

For the most part the way rogues entered beta is the way we left beta, the only thing I remember being actively iterated on was dispatch, rogues told Blizzard that dispatch didn't work well with an energy cost and it was changed first to half energy cost then to free. There were a few other changes to make execute range more executish based on some of Pin's feedback but beyond that I'm really struggling to come up with major changes.

Some of this can probably be blamed on the community of rogues giving feedback, too much feedback was spent on outright complaining or on issues that we had already gotten an answer on, albeit not the answer we wanted but an answer. I don't want to say that my pet issues about things like the role of feint and tricks or combat and sub pve rotations are more valid then other people's pet issues like cps on the rogue but I do wonder if we as a community had accepted GC that cps on the rogue wasn't happening and moved on if we would have gotten better feedback down the line.

While we deserve some of the blame I think there are valid complaints to be made about rogues during beta. Issues that are now being acknowledged as issues were pointed out during beta, rogue mobility issues and relative toolkit strength in pvp and level 90 talents in general were pointed out multiple times in some detail. Beyond that there are issues that were brought up repeatedly and never addressed, never iterated on just ignored. Issues that are somewhat important in the grand scheme of things, questions about the role of tricks and why tricks remains the sole outlier in terms of a single target buff. Questions about why feint was changed, questions about the combat pve rotation and whether Blizzard feels that RB and BG represent interesting mechanics given how they were used, or more accurately ignored, in cata. Questions about how exactly sub works in PvE.

Then there is the emotional side of things, seeing other classes get ground up rebuilds or getting all sorts of fun new talent while rogues barely changed and talents are warmed over formerly baseline abilities just feels bad. Yes its petty and somewhat irrational but I think it contributes to a lot of the misgivings you see posted. I'm not going to pretend that the feedback given during beta was good, the signal to noise ratio was terrible as GC notes in one of his tweets but I also don't think Blizzard deserves credit for acknowledging now things that were given as feedback for months.
I won't say rogues were completely ignored. We definitely got a couple nice changes along with the bucketful of nerfs.

But I sincerely feel that we were, at best, put on the backburner of class design.
The effect is relative to the cause.

I strongly believe all the 'crying' that we do or any class does on their own respective forums correlate with how 'satisfied' they are with their current state. (barring the few individuals who perpetually complain regardless of time or day)

There is no doubt that the developers read what we write and think about solutions but perhaps the speed of implementation is what is bothering people the most.

--- and by speed of implementation I include the glaring problems that were already apparent in beta feedback.

Take for instance this tweet by Ghostcrawler: "@JamesWire1 we fear that Anticipation just does what Versatility is trying to do better."

@srzbznz: "@Ghostcrawler @JamesWire1 You 'fear'....? You 'FEAR'? Perhaps if your team listened to feedback sooner you would have 'KNOWN'."

Oh look what I found


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