The Blue Rogue: Official Class Changes/Notes

Rogue
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Excellent thread, thanks for this. I can't believe how tasteless some people are though. And !*#*%@*! threats, you say? Anger is weakness, children... Anger is weakness.
Not enough people have aggroed the Sha of Happiness, that's for sure.

Hey peops, PTR build #2 was datamined tonight! Here's a layman's summary of the changes that appear to be in store from the previous build -- though, again, these aren't official, guaranteed to happen or necessarily a complete rundown of the rogue-relevant changes:

  • The nerfed Blade Flurry will still copy 25% of damage, down from 100% on the live servers. However, that damage will now be copied onto *up to four* nearby targets, up from one. The energy regen penalty remains in place.
  • Cloak and Dagger appears to have finally replaced Hit and Run in the level-60 talent tier. (This is the spot that replaces Preparation, which is going baseline.)
  • The Burst of Speed tooltip has been updated to reflect what’s in the official patch preview notes: It costs 30 energy, down from 50 on the live servers, and it now breaks “movement-slowing” effects rather than “movement-impairing” effects (meaning it’ll still break snares/slows, but not roots).
  • The Sanguinary Vein buff that’s already in the official patch preview notes now appears in the PTR tooltip.
  • Our Tier 15 (new raid gear) set bonuses appear to be:
    • Two piece: Increases the duration of your finishing moves as if you had used an additional combo point, up to a maximum of 6 combo points.
    • Four piece: Shadow Blades also reduces the cost of all your abilities by 40%.


Blacksad started up a discussion thread about these changes earlier tonight over here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592240734
Lord help me, I'm not sure why I resurrected this thread, and I'm not sure how well I'll be able to keep it updated. (I sure didn't do a good job of it the last time.)

But I had some time and energy for forum-thread adjustment this weekend, and instead of doing something actually useful to people like updating and adding new stuff to my FAQ sticky, I decided to bring this one back for a reprise.

And now here it is. Again. For now. :)
lol i was reading through it for a while before i realized it was necro'd. I just wish they'd do a nice little overhaul of rogues. My rogue is the only class i've played since BC. I have no other max lvl alts. This is it for me lol and nothings really changed since BC. Besides the whole homogenization of talent trees and removal of talents i really liked (hunger for blood, overkill). Besides the fact there's no longer cookie cutter builds, rogues are the exact same as when I left the game 3 years ago.
Did you expect them to be Smurfs now? Warriors are still warriors. Mages are still mages.
Did you expect them to be Smurfs now? Warriors are still warriors. Mages are still mages.


They've changed a lot though and play a bit differently. I haven't noticed anything that made rogues play drastically differently and we haven't gotten more than 1 new core rotation skill in years (recup for cata sub, revealing strike, and dispatch if I'm remembering every core rotation skill, and not including cooldowns) like a number of other classes have.

I'm pretty sure an assassination rogue who's played in BC could reasonably pick up an assassination rogue now and play it with just as much proficiency (if not more thanks to the removal of positional requirements on mutilate)

That's not inherently bad - don't fix what ain't broke and all that. But I don't think a warrior plays as similarly now as they did in BC compared to how similarly a rogue plays now versus BC. Again, not a bad thing (by itself)

The lack of difference between specs thanks to making many major rogue abilities shared across specs is certainly an issue, however.
I can't help but feel a little upset when I read those tweets. I understand they want to bring balance to the game, but they are catering to those that whine the loudest instead of truly looking into how one class plays off another.

While I don't want to be overpowered, I also don't want to be considered the "useless" class. We've lost our utility (and this is not a recent change in 5.3- we've had this issue for a while).
We players whine about EVERYTHING. The designers aren't stupid, and they're not inclined to make knee-jerk reactions to class balance because the .1% of us who use these forums or fling tweets at them get angry and make demands. We are ALWAYS angry and making demands, and those demands usually directly conflict with one another.

We can, and should, disagree with them when we don't like the changes they're making. But it's silly to make the assumption that, because we don't agree with the logic behind those changes, it means they're only being implemented because people whined more loudly asking for the change than we whined asking for that change not to happen. That would be a terrible way to design a game. WoW wouldn't be as popular as it is for as long as it's been (1.3 million subscriber drop or no, it's still crazy popular) if it constantly catered to a vocal minority.
I think I like what other rogues were saying...

Make Shadowstep Baseline and perhaps have talents to enhance it, instead of the current CnD and Shadowstep talents that exist.
Post #3 updated with today's rogue tweets. Can't believe you guys got Holinka to respond TWICE regarding the troll thread.

<trudges off, grumbling>
Post #3 updated with today's rogue tweets. Can't believe you guys got Holinka to respond TWICE regarding the troll thread.

<trudges off, grumbling>
Lol awesome.
i dont expect my class to be completely different and redone, i'm just saying that even with the new lvl caps and all that, we haven't gotten much lol. I love my rogue dont get me wrong. I mean obviously if i havent even taken the time to lvl an alt. I just hate how all the other classes got some new talents and abilities, whereas ours is pretty much exactly the same lol. i came back to the game after being gone for all but a month in 3 years. not much has changed with rogues. that's all im saying lol
Join me in the WoW time machine for a moment (just move my crap off the passenger seat; I don't get many visitors) ...

I'd go as far to say that most of the class team would probably agree (and I didn't poll them, so I may be sticking my neck out) that the rogue is the best designed class. And much of that design was in place before virtually any of us started working on classes, so we can't even really take credit for it. The rogue has the best resource system (energy), a strong kit, a good toolbox, and a clear role in PvP and PvE, yet it still has disadvantages to go along with the advantages and can't just do everything flawlessly all the time. It's a good design, again in our humble opinions, which is why you see so few changes to the class overall. But please don't over-read that as my stating that we won't fix bugs, add polish, balance numbers, undo bone-headed design flaws when the need arises, or yes, add a little bit of newness once in awhile just to keep things shiny.

That was posted by Ghostcrawler in June of last year, as Mists was in beta and Cataclysm was wrapping up. So I think he'd agree with you, as would much of the WoW design team, that the class hasn't undergone earth-shaking changes since the last time you played regularly. But that's because they've long felt that the class itself was really well put together, and they didn't want to fix what they felt ain't broke.

From the looks of it, though, as Mists has progressed they've grown unhappy with at least two things: One, the level of similarity we now have between the three specs; and two, the chronic unpopularity of the class as a whole. I seriously doubt we're going to see anything truly crazy happen for the next expansion (we'll still have a combo point + energy system, we'll still have generators and finishers, we'll still have a wide range of CC/mobility options), but I think in terms of basic mechanics and fundamental gameplay alterations, we're likely to see a lot more happen to the class when Patch 6.0 arrives than has happened in quite a long time.
But that's because they've long felt that the class itself was really well put together, and they didn't want to fix what they felt ain't broke.


I agree with the concept, but I don't think they 'didn't fix' a lot of things about rogues.

What I'm getting at is the absolutely massive nerf laundry list we got during 5.0. That we told them repeatedly wasn't working during the beta, which he tried to refute with that. Maybe the devs thought nothing changed, but I'd dare any of them to read that list and say 'yeah rogues are gonna be in the same spot they were beforehand' a couple nerfs were warranted but we told them, over and over and over 'hey, this isn't working' 'hey, this isn't working' 'hey, this seriously isn't working'

rogue design was mostly fine in 4.0-4.3. The specs felt different, combat and assass could use some pvp love, but overall they were distinct enough that this issue wasn't brought up nearly as often.

tldr: it could be argued that they didn't want to change anything about rogues, but they changed a lot and the argument will be proved false by their actions.
I'm assuming you're talking about PvP here, Nan? To me, there was no "massive nerf laundry list" -- there was a series of largely quality-of-life adjustments that were handy and welcome for many folks who already play rogues, but little that would draw new people to the class (or encourage people trying the class to stick with it). I'm referring mostly to our ramp-up: the elimination of Deadly Poison stacking; Bandit's Guile stacking on the rogue rather than the target; the addition of Shuriken Toss to give us a potential option at range. But I'm also referring to a few other nice (and, in some cases, long-wished-for) tweaks we got, including an end to the 1.8-vs.-1.4-speed dagger annoyances; the ability of Combat rogues to dual-wield slow weapons; higher crits for poisons.

This may be selective memory on my part, but the only overt nerfs I'm recalling were what was done to the Subtlety spec by forcing a choice between Shadowstep and Preparation (which the designers all but acknowledged was a mistake by baselining Prep in 5.2) and by giving *other* classes a lot of additional mobility/CC toys, effectively gutting the power of rogues in competitive PvP. The talent tree redesigns may have exacerbated this a little by depriving PvP rogues of some of the high-control/high-survivability builds that, when coupled with the ridiculous damage they were putting out toward the end of Cata, made them so brutally effective against other players.
This may be selective memory on my part, but the only overt nerfs I'm recalling were what was done to the Subtlety spec by forcing a choice between Shadowstep and Preparation (which the designers all but acknowledged was a mistake by baselining Prep in 5.2) and by giving *other* classes a lot of additional mobility/CC toys, effectively gutting the power of rogues in competitive PvP. The talent tree redesigns may have exacerbated this a little by depriving PvP rogues of some of the high-control/high-survivability builds that, when coupled with the ridiculous damage they were putting out toward the end of Cata, made them so brutally effective against other players.


The removal of our crit talents was also a massive hit to sub in both PvP and PvE. By the end of cata our ambush was critting 100% of the time and our backstab was critting most of the time.
How much of that was talents, and how much was the natural stat-effectiveness deflation that occurred as we leveled from maximally geared 85 to (what is now) moderately geared 90? (I'm genuinely curious; I only played Sub for a span of a few weeks late in Cata and paid very little attention to the talent tree or ability specs, so I don't remember much of that stuff.)
05/14/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Rfeann
How much of that was talents, and how much was the natural stat-effectiveness deflation that occurred as we leveled from maximally geared 85 to (what is now) moderately geared 90?


IIRC it was 60% or 70% on ambush and 35% on backstab from talents. It wasn't even felt exclusively post 85, it was felt at 85 post MOP patch at the end of DS. This is why post patch sub preferred mastery to crit... crit could no longer reach the desired level even in full BiS gear and extra finisher damage became a better option.
05/14/2013 08:27 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
This may be selective memory on my part, but the only overt nerfs I'm recalling were what was done to the Subtlety spec by forcing a choice between Shadowstep and Preparation (which the designers all but acknowledged was a mistake by baselining Prep in 5.2) and by giving *other* classes a lot of additional mobility/CC toys, effectively gutting the power of rogues in competitive PvP. The talent tree redesigns may have exacerbated this a little by depriving PvP rogues of some of the high-control/high-survivability builds that, when coupled with the ridiculous damage they were putting out toward the end of Cata, made them so brutally effective against other players.


The removal of our crit talents was also a massive hit to sub in both PvP and PvE. By the end of cata our ambush was critting 100% of the time and our backstab was critting most of the time.


The damage numbers were adjusted accordingly as well. If you have a talent that makes ambush crit 50% more, you can just baseline the extra damage. The bonus is that now crit can be twice as valuable for that ability and now does 50% more damage baseline.

It can be easy to forget that a lot of number can change under hood that can missed or hidden behind the removal of name abilities/passives or or other tweaks that don't blatantly show up on tooltips. Indeed, I remeber that much of that happened quite late in the beta. Because numbers are so easy to change that you can save them for last. And that is what they did. If you weren't looking you missed it.

The poison crit damage bonus, which along with many other changes has resulted in crit actually being quite valuable again for all rogues. That is a direct result of changes to details like this that get missed if all you ever read is tooltip changes datamined on MMOC or in the patch notes.

Plus it can be easy to criticize that the class hasn't changed when some, maybe even many, rogues value that they don't have to relearn their class every expansion. I would have quit the game entirely long ago if I had to deal with as many changes as pallys and druids deal with. The up and down, left and right would drive me nuts. So, just because someone may want major changes doesn't mean that the class should be changed. There are a great many classes and spec to choose from for someone who likes lots of variation. There are significantly less choices one can make to try an avoid that turmoil.

It can be difficult enough getting back into the game after a break remembering where all the buttons are or after having a significant change in UI layout. Pile on top of that you have 30 or 40 abilities to manage. And now they have to make a bunch of changes every couple of years just too keep someone interested enough to keep playing a specific spec of a specific class when there is plenty of variations between classes and specs to choose from? On top of new classes and levels added each expansion?

I think its fine for rogues to be that class that doesn't change much. Partly because I believe the design is nearly perfect and that the other classes are just now starting to catch up is basic mechanics/resources. And partly because I can log in after all these years and still play pretty much the same class I played when I first trekked through elwynn forest all those years ago. Its a design I found extremely fun in classic and its the one I still find to be the most engaging today.

I think its ok to stick with a proven design and just tweak the annoying/blatantly problematic bits.

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