Garalon Changes - Raid Finder, Normal, Heroic

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welp. RIP Blade Flurry (2005-2012)

at least now they have no excuse not to make combat rogues do non-garbage single target damage.

Blade Flurry is still good in cleave situations, on stone guards for example it will still be very powerful. Where it will be less powerful is places like halfus or zonozz where you can mirror around damage buffs. Combat will probably still be the best spec for garalon but they will no longer be so dominant.
11/10/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Casa

Your complaint being they listened to feedback within days of release of new content, and fixed it promptly?

Seriously what point do you even have here?


The complaint is that they made a fight more difficult 4 days after it became available, and after 20 guilds have killed it. This change makes it harder for other guilds to catch up.


Sort of like how they nerfed the PVP gear after the first few days and first few guilds went through. Not anything new here, move along.
Blade Fury and Sweeping Strikes has worked this way forever... I don't see how you didn't realize this would be a problem all through beta and internal testing. I mean, just read the tooltips that you guys created.

You might as well nerf it on Wind Lord too since you can do this same exact thing off the boss once he gets the damage taken debuff... Just saying.
The real question is, is this a change to underlying bf mechanics or just a special case change to garalon.

Sort of, and something we should take this opportunity to clarify. In Cataclysm, cleave-type mechanics double-dipped on damage bonuses, but we changed that universally in Patch 5.0 on a fundamental level. If you go back to Halfus or Wind Lord Mel'jarak, you'll find that cleave effects that derive their damage from the initial hit now only award the bonus damage on the target that is receiving increased damage.

Note that this works both ways. If you Sinister Strike a target that has a 50% damage reduction effect on it, your Blade Flurry will still do full damage to a secondary target, which previously would not have been the case.

The pending hotfix addresses a bug specific to the Garalon encounter which cause these new rules to not apply. Abilities that can hit a leg and the body simultaneously will still be extremely effective on the boss.

11/10/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Cyous
You realize that without stacking, a 6min enrage was really tough to meet--for a normal mode, right?

Garalon's berserk timer on Normal and Heroic modes was adjusted from 6 minutes to 7 minutes last week. So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized, many of which were well ahead of the increased berserk timer.
After 10 more attempts in LFR on Garalon this morning AFTER hotfix. This is still way too much for a pug LFR group. People don't listen and don't pay attention. I lost count of how many times people stood in the big Purple circle and caused Crushes.

the biggest change that could benefit LFR and not make it "toxic" as is stated in an above post is to reduce the size of the purple circle. Unless you goal is to make people AVOID HoF LFR. If that is so, you have achieved you goal.
11/10/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Crithto
The real question is, is this a change to underlying bf mechanics or just a special case change to garalon.

Sort of, and something we should take this opportunity to clarify. In Cataclysm, cleave-type mechanics double-dipped on damage bonuses, but we changed that universally in Patch 5.0 on a fundamental level. If you go back to Halfus or Wind Lord Mel'jarak, you'll find that cleave effects that derive their damage from the initial hit now only award the bonus damage on the target that is receiving increased damage.

Note that this works both ways. If you Sinister Strike a target that has a 50% damage reduction effect on it, your Blade Flurry will still do full damage to a secondary target, which previously would not have been the case.

The pending hotfix addresses a bug specific to the Garalon encounter which cause these new rules to not apply. Abilities that can hit a leg and the body simultaneously will still be extremely effective on the boss.

11/10/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Cyous
You realize that without stacking, a 6min enrage was really tough to meet--for a normal mode, right?

Garalon's berserk timer on Normal and Heroic modes was adjusted from 6 minutes to 7 minutes last week. So far, we've seen many Heroic kills (10H and 25H) where a balanced raid composition was utilized, many of which were well ahead of the increased berserk timer.


So in PvP rogues can do full damage to targets under damage reduction abilities by attacking players around them?
After 10 more attempts in LFR on Garalon this morning AFTER hotfix. This is still way too much for a pug LFR group. People don't listen and don't pay attention. I lost count of how many times people stood in the big Purple circle and caused Crushes.

the biggest change that could benefit LFR and not make it "toxic" as is stated in an above post is to reduce the size of the purple circle. Unless you goal is to make people AVOID HoF LFR. If that is so, you have achieved you goal.


This isn't what you'll want to hear, and I only offer it as the little compensation I can, but if you have the option, try not to wait till the weekends to do LFR.
Can you add some sort of short duration debuff for passing of pheromones. While we still we're able to kill it, there was a big problem with the pheromones getting passed back to the original kiter after someone new took it. This was not from bad play and must have something to do with the way range on passing pheromones works. My suggestion is to add a 5 second debuff that says "cannot receive pheromones" or something like that.
3 attempts and a couple people wiolling to do the fight right (myself and a druid) made it easy before the nerf.
11/10/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Karamok
So in PvP rogues can do full damage to targets under damage reduction abilities by attacking players around them?

If I understand this no. Say you are standing next to an spriest with disperse up.

If I attack the spriest he takes 90% reduced damage but you take full damage.
If I attack you, you take full damage but the spriest is taking 90% reduced damage.

The idea is the initial hit is mirrored before modifiers then both targets apply their modifiers after the hit is mirrored.
For guilds that barely made the enrage on 25 and had 2 rogues are we going to be unable to kill this fight next week? That's 50 million damage to make up.

Basically, were we not intended to kill this boss with our current DPS output and is our kill being taken back effectively?
I am very concerned about the changes when it comes to normal mode kills. The enrage timer was extremely difficult for us to overcome in 25-man raids. The only way we were able to avoid 5-10% wipes was to only allow rogues, warriors and mages to attack the legs and keep everybody else on the body. There was just no way we were going to defeat him because of the enrage timer without this.

My guild has completed 6/6 MSV and 3/6 HoF 25-normal, and the only boss that has given us any enrage difficulties has been Garalon. Our DPS is very competitive, and many of us loves to rank on worldoflogs. Still, with very strong DPS for normal modes, we were unable to defeat Garalon without taking full advantage of the extreme cleave DPS. I am, therefore, certainly worried about next week, now that this has been taken away. The enrage timer is far more difficult than any other encounter so far this tier.
11/10/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Fierydemise
So in PvP rogues can do full damage to targets under damage reduction abilities by attacking players around them?

If I understand this no. Say you are standing next to an spriest with disperse up.

If I attack the spriest he takes 90% reduced damage but you take full damage.
If I attack you, you take full damage but the spriest is taking 90% reduced damage.

The idea is the initial hit is mirrored before modifiers then both targets apply their modifiers after the hit is mirrored.


I guess that assumes that the damage done to secondary targets is calculated based on that secondary target's state. If it just calculates damage from the primary target and spreads the love according the spell damage, this could still be a problem.
After 10 more attempts in LFR on Garalon this morning AFTER hotfix. This is still way too much for a pug LFR group. People don't listen and don't pay attention. I lost count of how many times people stood in the big Purple circle and caused Crushes.

the biggest change that could benefit LFR and not make it "toxic" as is stated in an above post is to reduce the size of the purple circle. Unless you goal is to make people AVOID HoF LFR. If that is so, you have achieved you goal.

Then people need to learn that raiding is not for them and stop queueing if they can't follow simple mechanics

Even on Tuesday, Garalon was an easy kill in LFR. Mechanics are simple. Don't go near the glowing Pheromone trail and kiters. Don't stand in purple circle under the boss.

If you're going to bring things to the point that you have to make mechanics meaningless to compensate for the daily kids that have no business being in a raid, then Blizzard needs to stop producing LFR and just put a huge boss in the middle of Vale of Eternal Blossom with 300 million HP that does nothing but stand there until killed and then drops epics. Let it respawn every hour so no one misses out.
I guess that assumes that the damage done to secondary targets is calculated based on that secondary target's state. If it just calculates damage from the primary target and spreads the love according the spell damage, this could still be a problem.

I'm almost positive that isn't how it works. On Amber Shaper on thursday BF damage from the monstrosity onto the boss was being reduced properly. Crithto's comments suggest that the basic behavior of BF hasn't changed since 5.0 dropped so those observations from Thursday should still be valid.

11/10/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Ianarion
For guilds that barely made the enrage on 25 and had 2 rogues are we going to be unable to kill this fight next week? That's 50 million damage to make up.

If you are just summing up your rogue's BF damage, that isn't accurate. This will cut BF damage in half so you'll need to make up about 25 million damage not 50 million.
If you go back to Halfus or Wind Lord Mel'jarak, you'll find that cleave effects that derive their damage from the initial hit now only award the bonus damage on the target that is receiving increased damage.

Note that this works both ways. If you Sinister Strike a target that has a 50% damage reduction effect on it, your Blade Flurry will still do full damage to a secondary target, which previously would not have been the case.


This is a change I was unaware that was made. I had just been told that cleaving off of Wind Lord (just an example) would still act as an empowered cleave and transfer the extra damage through Sweeping Strikes and Blade Fury.

I have another question, though. Why is it that some class cleaves will transfer to the boss, but others will not? For instance, Ele Shaman cleave does not transfer to the body of the boss. Is there any specific reason behind this?

You say that Garalon was killed with a balanced raid composition. However, some of the streams I was watching were bringing 4 Rogues, Arms Warrior, and 2 Mages for 25 man. That doesn't really seem that balanced to me.
11/10/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Ochron
This is a change I was unaware that was made. I had just been told that cleaving off of Wind Lord (just an example) would still act as an empowered cleave and transfer the extra damage through Sweeping Strikes and Blade Fury.

I suspect this is just an example of a mechanic that wasn't tested by players. As far as I know most rogues were operating under the assumption that BF worked the same way in MoP as in cata and without carefully looking at logs to verify that behavior the mechanic change wouldn't have been obvious.
This is an incredibly poor idea without making changes to at least the normal mode version of the encounter. The 'exploit', if you want to call it that, was the only thing making the encounter reasonable for 25man guilds progressing through without flat out overgearing the encounter or dumping people playing classes that just can't perform on the encounter (Anybody using a pet as a significant damage source, basically). Leaving this for heroic makes sense, it's supposed to be incredibly challenging. However, the enrage timer on Garalon 25N is far too tight for most guilds to be going through.

Now the Rogues, Fire Mages, Arms Warriors that were taken for their cleaves still will be: cleaving is still going to be superior to everything else. However, this means that those classes that struggle on the encounter, i.e. All hunters in general, simply won't fit in any progression raid comps.

I mean there's plenty to say about how poorly designed Garalon is in general, but this throws 'bring the player not the class' clear out the window.

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