Healers & PvP Power

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Nope, as a dedicated healer you haven't been nerfed. The tooltip on your character sheet was always incorrect, but that issue was fixed in 5.1. Note that the PvP Power you have should be contributing to your damage output though.

On the same token, dedicated damage dealers and tanks (including hybrid classes using those specializations) no longer benefit from PvP Power for healing.


PvP power is NOT affecting the damage of healing specs right now, please don't tell me this is intended. The change was meant to stop dps hybrid specs from healing, don't take away damage from healers as an unwanted side effect; healers (notably Discipline) need to do damage in arena and without PvP power affecting damage it's not even worth the mana or time trying.
Nope, as a dedicated healer you haven't been nerfed. The tooltip on your character sheet was always incorrect, but that issue was fixed in 5.1. Note that the PvP Power you have should be contributing to your damage output though.

On the same token, dedicated damage dealers and tanks (including hybrid classes using those specializations) no longer benefit from PvP Power for healing.


PvP power is NOT affecting the damage of healing specs right now, please don't tell me this is intended. The change was meant to stop dps hybrid specs from healing, don't take away damage from healers as an unwanted side effect; healers (notably Discipline) need to do damage in arena and without PvP power affecting damage it's not even worth the mana or time trying.


Also for MW monk, if PvP power doesnt affect my damage anymore i will consider to switch my Tiier 6 talent (tiger) to something else :O but yeah Maybe its a bug and they need to Hotfix it will see, And btw our healing didnt got nerf, i actually heal more than 5.0.5
So, now while waiting the 2.5 minutes between being able to do decent damage i cant even heal worth a crap? That's awesome.
Seems like there's a lot of confusion about this and I'm pretty sure the blue post had a typo which might be causing even more confusion. First off there weren't any ninja nerfs, all the changes made have been talked about here and there for the past 2 months but unfortunately aren't in the patch notes. I'll try my best to lay it all out as simply as possible.

Damage Dealers:
- Your healing no longer benefits from PvP Power
- Your damage still benefits from PvP Power

Healers:
- Your healing still benefits from PvP Power
- Your damage no longer benefits from PvP Power
- You will notice in your character tab that the percentage your healing is increased by PvP Power is half of what is was before 5.1 dropped. This is only a tooltip fix and your healing has not been affected by this. This tooltip fix reflects a change made right around MoP release that cut the benefit of PvP Power for healers in half simply because PvP Power was too good for them.

Healers and Damage Dealers:
-With Patch 5.1 a global healing reduction of 15% has been applied. It's called Battle Fatigue and can be found in the general tab of your spellbook. The 15% healing reduction occurs after having damaged or received damage from an opposing player and if you are out in the world it should not be active if you are not currently in combat with another player. I have not yet had a chance to test whether this global healing reduction is always active in Arenas or Battlegrounds or when just in combat when in them. I would assume the later, but can't definitively say.

Conclusion:
-Damage dealers your healing has been nerfed twice, once due to PvP Power no longer affecting it and once due to the 15% global reduction. Your damage remains the same.
-Healers your healing has been nerfed once due to the 15% global reduction. Your damage has been nerfed once due to PvP Power no longer affecting it.

-Hope this has helped clear up any confusion about the changes, sorry in advance for any typos!
At the risk of sounding like a devil's advocate, I really don't see the problem.

The argument healers made whenever the fact they are practically unkillable 1vs1 by a DPS (that isn't a Mage or Warrior) is bought up is the fact they have little to fight back with. I don't like the model myself mind you. I much rather healers actually be mortal like the rest of us and instead have a moderate amount of firepower but Blizzard stood their ground for years and that was the argument healers clung to. I hate to say it but I think this is a case of reaping what you sow. You cannot have both near-immortality and reasonable damage so it looks like things have gone back to the original model. Again, it isn't something I agree with but you cannot say Blizzard didn't listen to the demands of healers in this case, for better or worse.

By the same token, DPS with active heals were seven shades of ridiculous. Shadow Priests were the worst offenders but they were far from the only culprits. They really should of knocked this over the head back in beta but better late then never I guess.

So yeah, call me crazy but I really don't see the problem here.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
I'd say working as intended. You as a healer should not being doing any major dps except what is required do to spec and procs. Hybrid dps should not be able to effectively keep anyone alive. Emergency heals only. You want to heal, be a healer. You want to dps, dps. Not both.
Eh healing was too high nearly across the board. Frankly so was burst. They tonned down teh burst, but with that, they also have to tone down the healing.

Frankly though, I think they'd have a easier time balancing the whole thing, if they took that pvp healing debuff and make it specific to each zone so they can tweek the balance more precisiely.

RBGs for example, it didn't seem as off balance, simply because you should have enough interupts and dps to take one down when you've built a premade. But in Arena? Healers were mad crazyness o.O
11/28/2012 03:25 AMPosted by Daemonight
I'd say working as intended. You as a healer should not being doing any major dps except what is required do to spec and procs. Hybrid dps should not be able to effectively keep anyone alive. Emergency heals only. You want to heal, be a healer. You want to dps, dps. Not both.


Agreed.

However this philosophy becomes a problem when you have a spec whose viability and 90% of it's defense comes from off healing.

i.e. Ret
Nope, as a dedicated healer you haven't been nerfed. The tooltip on your character sheet was always incorrect, but that issue was fixed in 5.1. Note that the PvP Power you have should be contributing to your damage output though.

On the same token, dedicated damage dealers and tanks (including hybrid classes using those specializations) no longer benefit from PvP Power for healing.

There is so much wrong with this. First, from Nakatoir on EU forums on 11/15:

"Woah ...wait, what? This is in what patch notes now?
As I already said, this is a change we are considering and is not in any way definite or final. So continue to give your feedback on off-spec healers and possible changes, we are listening to it :) "

This change was not in the PTR notes, but there was obviously a need to make this nerf go live right away instead of giving it time for feedback and to be tested on the PTR as the Mage, Hunter, and Warrior nerfs (and a few subsequent reversals) were. When did we go from a "we're thinking about doing this but it's not official and we'd appreciate some feedback" to a change that had to go live immediately? I have seen multiple Warriors doing nearly 1 million self-healing within about a 2-3 minute arena match. No casting. No resource costs. No damage tradeoffs. No PvP Power scaling. Just a lot of pillar humping made easy by a non-dispellable AE stun on a shorter CD than my dispellable single target stun with a longer CD and a non-dispellable AE fear that's still on a shorter CD than my AE blind and doesn't break on damage to boot. Unfortunately, my PvP healing just took a large dip whereas Second Wind is just as strong as ever despite the fact that a Warrior could do two-thirds the healing of my Resto Druid partner over the same span of time.

Nerfing hybrid healing only serves to increase the power of non-healer classes at a time where those non-healers have been bursting other players like Vanilla Fire Mages (when Ret was doing this post-3.0, it was nerfed within hours, yet Warriors seem to be immune to this type of haphazard hotfixing despite doing the same thing at Gladiator-level PvP). Do the tweaks to some of those DPS classes compensate for me losing a third of my total PvP healing? Ret's healing has been pretty gated by Selfless Healer (only stacks to 3 once every 15-20 seconds and the stacks are dispellable) and Holy Power causing DPS losses when used on WoG, whereas some of the other hybrids are not. I thought the main culprit of too much PvP off-healing was the large mana pools of hybrid casters and the ease with which they recover much larger chunks of it thanks to % max mana returns, giving them the ability to spam 10-12 quick heals instead of the two that melee hybrids get. And then they just pick up on DPS where they left off because of the relatively low cost of damage spells.
Don't know why you cut down tank's pvp healing. Our pitiful damage output and inability to contribute to pvp fights too epic? You will probably tell me "oh tanks have some pvp utility"... yeah tell me how many tanks you think are in... oh say the top 100 arena teams. or even the top 1000.... i'm gonna guess none.
11/27/2012 08:49 PMPosted by Ayani
Nope, as a dedicated healer you haven't been nerfed. The tooltip on your character sheet was always incorrect, but that issue was fixed in 5.1. Note that the PvP Power you have should be contributing to your damage output though.


Wait, what? Did you mean to say shouldn't be contributing to your damage output? PvP power no longer has any effect on our damage. My smites are hitting players for 7k each. The intent may have been to nerf hybrid healing, but this change also completely butchered pure healer damage output in PvP, even for specs like Disc and Mistweaver that do part of their healing through dealing damage.

good, heals are OP enough as it is.
11/28/2012 04:53 AMPosted by Sivick
Don't know why you cut down tank's pvp healing. Our pitiful damage output and inability to contribute to pvp fights too epic? You will probably tell me "oh tanks have some pvp utility"... yeah tell me how many tanks you think are in... oh say the top 100 arena teams. or even the top 1000.... i'm gonna guess none.

and then the excuse is used that they're trying to balance every spec for pvp.
All they have been "balanceing" for tanks in pvp, is how to "balance" tanks straight out of pvp.
I don't understand why you have to homogenize ALL classes together. It seems like the objective would be easier if you balanced each class and spec individually instead of doing across the board nerfs and buffs and then having to tweak the classes individually anyway. If a Hybrid class is too strong, nerf the class/spec, don't punish everyone.
Okay, so now that we've gutted the (overpowered) healing of lazer turkeys, shadow priests, and elemental shamans... can we either get PvP power scaling on heals back on melee hybrid classes (ret, feral, enhance, windwalker), or buffed dps->healing values to compensate?

My heals, using Glyph of Healing Storm, did not scale from 85-90, and *barely* scaled as I geared up. At 85, I healed for 50k Healing Surges with 5 stacks MSW. At fresh 90, I healed for 50k Healing Surges with 5 stacks MSW. Over 480 ilvl, I heal for 55-60k Healing Surges with 5 stacks MSW. yes, sometimes I can get lucky, with my 10% spellcrit (buffed) and 30% echo of the elements proc to actually output a decent emergency heal, but the rest of the time my emergency heal heals for less than half a boss swing on a tank. And my class is UNDER powered in PvP right now. If you don't want hybrids scaling with PvP power, at least improve non-caster hybrids agi/str to healing scaling so we can feel like we can contribute.

I'll post on my feral to talk about him.
It's even worse on my feral druid. I take the Dream of Cenarius talent, which due to Feral mechanics, basically is a flat 30% increase to all my healing.

As a fresh 90, with this I can put out 50k Healing Touches. Once every 5CP finishing move (approx 5-15 seconds, depending on proc luck). I also have a 1 minute cooldown 75k Healing Touch via Nature's Swiftness. To do the regular, non-CD ones, I have to give up a cyclone/root that I could have cast in form, instantly, instead.

Now, those numbers are pre-PvP power. Right now I have nearly 6k PvP power, and pre-patch, I was getting 20% better heals. THAT is the ONLY scaling my healing has done since I hit 90. Since the patch, I'm back at healing for the same amounts I was healing for when I was in greens.

Non-scaling heals just feels bad. It really, REALLY feels bad. Health pools scale up as we gain gear, damage scales up, why shouldn't my healing?

Now, feral is strong in PvP right now, and I don't think this will really change that one way or the other. I'm just talking a QoL issue where my character does not feel like he is gaining power as I gear up.

Again, please either restore PvP power scaling for the non-problematic hybrids, or give us better agi/str scaling so we can feel like all aspects of our character are growing stronger as we gear up.
It's even worse on my feral druid. I take the Dream of Cenarius talent, which due to Feral mechanics, basically is a flat 30% increase to all my healing.

As a fresh 90, with this I can put out 50k Healing Touches. Once every 5CP finishing move (approx 5-15 seconds, depending on proc luck). I also have a 1 minute cooldown 75k Healing Touch via Nature's Swiftness. To do the regular, non-CD ones, I have to give up a cyclone/root that I could have cast in form, instantly, instead.

Now, those numbers are pre-PvP power. Right now I have nearly 6k PvP power, and pre-patch, I was getting 20% better heals. THAT is the ONLY scaling my healing has done since I hit 90. Since the patch, I'm back at healing for the same amounts I was healing for when I was in greens.

Non-scaling heals just feels bad. It really, REALLY feels bad. Health pools scale up as we gain gear, damage scales up, why shouldn't my healing?

Now, feral is strong in PvP right now, and I don't think this will really change that one way or the other. I'm just talking a QoL issue where my character does not feel like he is gaining power as I gear up.

Again, please either restore PvP power scaling for the non-problematic hybrids, or give us better agi/str scaling so we can feel like all aspects of our character are growing stronger as we gear up.


Or play Ret.
Have terrible damage outside of cooldowns, pop said cooldwns, be cc'd for duration of said coodowns, then die.

Don't have any cooldowns up?
Run away spamming 30k WoGs for 3 holy power each, just to die to something that negates all your healing.

You CANNOT base a spec's survivability upon it's off heals, then nerf them to the point where they are literally a waste of resources to use.

Thanks for ruining Retribution:D
I would have commented on ret, but I don't play one. I can only provide an insightful opinion on classes I play :P

Hence the toonswapping to post about my experiences as two different melee hybrids.

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