Pet Tier List.

Pet Battles
Hello, my worgen slaying goes well, I have recently slain several worgen who were cowering behind their wall, they assume walls are such safe places to hide, but its so obvious a worgen would hide there.

Back on topic, I would like to discuss the possibility of a pet tier list, rather than me simply list my opinion, I would like to get all of your opinions and compile a list based on that. All pets will start out in the borderline tier, a tier in which pets are too powerful for underused, but still not powerful enough to be considered overused. Voting will work like this, you state a pet, and give it a +1 vote, -1 vote, or a 0 vote based on your thoughts on its position in the tier list. Votes must have a reason with them. I will place my votes in the next post.

Neverused (NU) Requires -8 votes or less.


Underused (UU) Requires -3 votes or less.


Borderline (BL) Requires -2 through +2 votes.

Crystal Spider (+1)
Singing Sun Flower (-1)

Overused (OU) Requires +3 votes or more.


Uber (U) Requires +8 votes or more.
Alright, I will place my personal votes here based on experience.

Crystal Spider (+1), this thing sweeps teams, simple as that, while most spiders are already powerful with web + leech, this spider also gets a stun, which allows it to effectively set up a web on the target and then heal next turn, potentially saving it from near death. Additionally, this thing is fast, it has 305 speed which means it will outspeed most other pets, despite having little burst, this pet has consistent damage and healing which makes it difficult for non burst pets to kill.

Singing Sunflower (-1), this thing is directly worse than the Terrible Turnip, choosing the double strike attack would be silly with its 256 speed, most of the time, that attack would hit once, leaving you with solar beam, which is only effective with sunlight, in short, this pet has no consistent attack, making its heal over time useless. It is only good for changing the weather, which the Terrible Turnip does better if you want something with Sunlight.
...
We don't need this.
Hello, my worgen slaying goes well, I have recently slain several worgen who were cowering behind their wall, they assume walls are such safe places to hide, but its so obvious a worgen would hide there.


The RP runs deep with this one
It would be interesting to round up 25 popular "tier 1" pets and put them in a battle royale against each other, and record the results. A solid team might just be the pets that have a good matchup against the most other popular pets. It shouldn't be that hard to do, just get in there and pet battle and record who wins.
12/03/2012 02:21 PMPosted by Renotarshil
We don't need this.


Why not?
12/04/2012 07:09 PMPosted by Marterai
We don't need this.


Why not?


1. Because it removes a certain level of fun that comes with assembling a team.
2. Because there are counters for everything.
3. Because the metagame for one server group is probably vastly different than the metagame from another.
4. Because those metagames constantly shift.
5. Because I disagree with even the assertion that there is a 'best rabbit', let alone a 'best critter' or 'best pets'

P.S. turnip is not 'directly better' than sunflower.
12/04/2012 07:39 PMPosted by Hugh


Why not?


1. Because it removes a certain level of fun that comes with assembling a team.
2. Because there are counters for everything.
3. Because the metagame for one server group is probably vastly different than the metagame from another.
4. Because those metagames constantly shift.
5. Because I disagree with even the assertion that there is a 'best rabbit', let alone a 'best critter' or 'best pets'

P.S. turnip is not 'directly better' than sunflower.


1. How so?
2. How do you know that/some counters are strictly weaker than the pet they are supposed to counter.
3. These diffrences can be helpful for everyone to learn about through the people's explination.
4. Tier lists aren't static either.
5. Some pets of a certain species have strictly better stat organization for what their job is supposed to be, or in some cases, better moves.

P.S. Lets compare the two then. The Turnip has much higher attack and speed than the sunflower, while the sunflower has more HP at the expense of attack and speed, the benefit of high HP is negated through the use of sunlight, which I will describe later, is the only real option for the sunflower.

The problem with this stat orientation is that the only move the sunflower gets which does consistent damage requires the sunflower to be fast, which its not, or a move which requires you to stay trapped for two turns, which is a huge caveat, other pets do burst damage more effectively, the sunflower can't benefit from Arcane Winds either, this move is a risky finisher, if you don't finish a target off, you let your oponett set up on you, or finish you. Their is no real choice is the next set of moves either, as photosynthesis is useless for the flower, as you won't be staying in with it that long due to the lack of a reliable consistent attack, it could make up for solarbeam, but the other person would likely switch to a more favorable match up against you regardless. The last two moves seem like the only two useful moves the sunflower gets, but due to solarbeam being the only non useless ability in the first move slot, you are likely to take sunlight, which helps to negate the large HP bonus as elemental pets recieve no benefit from weather.

The turnip gets a useful utility move which does low overal damage, or a consistent high hitting attack with a minor caveat, these moves actually allow the Turnip to defend its self in battle, rather than being used simply for sunlight fodder. The Turnip also has leech seed, which can counteract the problem with weakening blow, even against mechanical pets. I never mentioned the multipet heal, but its not very impressive, however, in both cases, it can potentially allow a weakened slower pet to get off an extra attack before it dies. The third bracket allows for either sunlight, or brines of bramble, which both are useful, however, I would recomend brings of bramble for non sunlight teams as with elemental pets, you give your enemy an advantage when using sunlight a majority of the time.
I can confirm that Singing Sunflower suck-a$$ in pet battles, it's a nice pet for having around and listening to the random singing but thats it, in a pet battle it suck...a$$.

1. How so?

Because building something yourself and then watching it succeed or fail is almost always more rewarding than copying someone else's ideas.

2. How do you know that/some counters are strictly weaker than the pet they are supposed to counter.

I know that because the entire system is based around strong counters that are pretty explicitly stated. I could go down the list of pets and give a counter for every one, but I have better things to do.

3. These diffrences can be helpful for everyone to learn about through the people's explination.

Not exactly sure what you mean here, assuming you mean it's nice to hear people' ideas about strong pets explained rationally and comprehensively, I'd agree. But that doesn't have to be a part of some huge list, it's better of in its current form, as a series of threads, each with its own biases.

4. Tier lists aren't static either.

They require an awful lot of participation and constant updates - if not realtime battle result data straight from bliz - to stay current. And the differences between server groups compounds this problem. Not saying it's impossible to do it right, but definitely difficult.

5. Some pets of a certain species have strictly better stat organization for what their job is supposed to be, or in some cases, better moves.

Disagree. A pet's job can vary from battle to battle. Inflexibility in thinking with regards to this will lead to losses.


P.S. ...

Stat differences:
228 HP (sunflower)
32 Power (turnip)
16 Speed (turnip)

Speed only makes a difference relative to your opponent. So effectively, unless the pet you're facing has a speed inside that range of 16 (a rather small range), these 2 pets effectively are identical, speed-wise.

228 HP translates to 45.6 'stat points'. So, unless the pet you're facing falls into that speed 'sweet spot', the sunflower is basically ahead by 12.6 base stats. Of course, if there is a difference in speed, that can translate to quite an advantage.

Ability synergy:
The turnip's abilities don't really synergize well at all with it's stats. It doesn't have a very high speed - it's really about average - so it'll probably get the advantage half the time, about the same as the sunflower. That speed advantage really only synergizes with sons of the root, though, giving you an extra turn of avoidance. Moreover, if you do take sons of the root, you lose access to sunlight, eliminating the synergy between that move and the heals.

The sunflower's abilities synergize quite well. It has higher than average HP, and sunlight is a % based spell. Therefore, it will gain 114 more max hp from sunlight than the turnip would. Furthermore, it has abilities in 2 different slots that synergize with sunlight - a heal in slot 2, and solar beam in slot 1. So, if you run a sunlight build, you can go the whole way with it. And yes, solar beam does screw you over for 2 turns after using it, that's the nature of the ability, and if you don't think it's balanced, that's another discussion. Either way, the sunflower needs that time for its cooldowns to reset anyway, so it's not being fully wasted.

It's also worth noting that you don't need to run sunlight - it'll do just fine without it. I actually like early advantage a lot against high speed pets - it punishes them for attacking first, and then you've got heals to sustain yourself afterwards.

All told, turnip is a fairly underwhelming pet with one cool ability (sons of the root), but taking it totally destroys his synergy. I doubt I would ever use him in a serious pvp battle - for me, his only purpose is capturing. Sunflower is a cool pet that can be played as either a tank breaker - with high damage to break through armor and good heals to stay alive, or an "i'll outlast you" fast-pet killer.

All that said, your ideas aren't wrong either... you're free to play them however you want. And that's why I dislike tier lists.

The sunflower's abilities synergize quite well. It has higher than average HP, and sunlight is a % based spell. Therefore, it will gain 114 more max hp from sunlight than the turnip would. \


I don't disagree with your assertion about the sunflower in general with regards to the turnip, but this part of your analysis is incorrect. Being elementals, neither pet gets any hp boost from sunlight as elementals ignore weather effects.
12/03/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Hearus
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I like this guy.

The sunflower's abilities synergize quite well. It has higher than average HP, and sunlight is a % based spell. Therefore, it will gain 114 more max hp from sunlight than the turnip would. \


I don't disagree with your assertion about the sunflower in general with regards to the turnip, but this part of your analysis is incorrect. Being elementals, neither pet gets any hp boost from sunlight as elementals ignore weather effects.

Oh, I thought I had read somewhere that this was changed/fixed last week. If not, my bad.
The biggest reason this thread is a joke and should not be used to compile data is because of breed IDs..

One pet can be vastly superior to another pet of the exact same type based on breed IDs, along with the fact that specific breed IDs can also make certain pets trash. So someone might come in with some great pet that rolled a perfect breed ID for its class when another got an unfortunate roll and now is sub par. Those two will conflict with a pets score and some pets are only viable with very specific breeds.

/thread

1. How so?

Because building something yourself and then watching it succeed or fail is almost always more rewarding than copying someone else's ideas.

2. How do you know that/some counters are strictly weaker than the pet they are supposed to counter.

I know that because the entire system is based around strong counters that are pretty explicitly stated. I could go down the list of pets and give a counter for every one, but I have better things to do.

3. These diffrences can be helpful for everyone to learn about through the people's explination.

Not exactly sure what you mean here, assuming you mean it's nice to hear people' ideas about strong pets explained rationally and comprehensively, I'd agree. But that doesn't have to be a part of some huge list, it's better of in its current form, as a series of threads, each with its own biases.

4. Tier lists aren't static either.

They require an awful lot of participation and constant updates - if not realtime battle result data straight from bliz - to stay current. And the differences between server groups compounds this problem. Not saying it's impossible to do it right, but definitely difficult.

5. Some pets of a certain species have strictly better stat organization for what their job is supposed to be, or in some cases, better moves.

Disagree. A pet's job can vary from battle to battle. Inflexibility in thinking with regards to this will lead to losses.
P.S.....


1. And building something and watching it fail horribly is a huge waste of time
2. Poor moveset and poor stats compared to the counter and some pets existing strictly to counter a certain pet, meaning that pet will be garbage againsnt any other pet.
3. A tier list is a much more effective way to organize it.
4. This is supposed to be a group effort.
5. Assumption thats a bad pet will do well will also lead to losses, a tier list is supposed to list the possible jobs that pet can achieve, atleast for the standard meta game.

That HP stat is negated through the fact elemental pets don't benefit from sunlight, which means a majority of the time, you will be facing pets with a much higher health pool than the sunflower if you use sunlight, which you will for the sake of benefitting from your other useful abilities.

Your summary fails as elemental pets get no benefit from sunlight, as in, you will not get the healing bonus other pets would, giving your enemy an advantage, the only thing that elemental pets gain benefit from is photosynthis and solarbeam. The sunflowers poor speed stat makes it difficult to benefit from solarbeam when you should properly use it, before your pet dies or to finish off the enemy.

Again, elemental pets get no benefit from sunlight, aside from those specifically listed in their abilities, so the sunflower will get no extra HP from sunlight, and running early advantage ruins the synergy recieved from solarbeam, making it worse than weakening blow, unless you are about to die, which as I stated earlier, is difficult to pull off due to the sunflowers poor speed. Taking the two turns to do nothing is pretty big too, it allows your enemy to switch on you, giving him a potential advantage, and it can potentially allow him to set up on you, such as using whirlpool or minefield.

I would never use a pet which gives tanks MORE hp and MORE healing as a tank breaker, I would use something better at tank breaking such as the Crimson Geode. Ironically, taking early advantage destroys the sunflowers synergy signifigantly more than it would for the Turnip, as its abilities require sunlight to actually keep up with other similiar abilities.
To my great dismay since it's my favorite pet, the Sunflower is indeed useless for battling.

It's too slow to benefit from its multi attack so solarbeam is the only option - which has a massive cooldown and requires you to also use sunlight to make it half worthwhile. That leaves only the heal you can spam while you wait for solarbeam to recharge... Basically you do awful dps that takes 2 (or 3 if you hot yourself before beaming which you should) rounds to setup and then has a huge downtime.

/crai
You can't simplify pets in this manner. There are far to many counters and properly supported any "bad" pets can become deadly. It's a TEAM effort, this mini game does not revolve around 1v1.
I think there are 3 tiers - pvp, pve, vanity

Put any pet that can do well in a pvp setting for whatever reason in the pvp list. Pets that don't make that list but are good at trainers, put them on the pve list. Put the rest in the vanity list. You don't need anyone voting.

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