Moral swap?

Story Forum
Is it possible that there will ever be a "moral swap" between the Alliance and Horde? Or is that happening as we speak? Are the Alliance getting a little more darker and the Horde showing good?

Or is that completely out of the question?
I'd be very angry if the Alliance went evil. If anything the Horde is switching back...at least for an xpansion.
12/02/2012 05:55 PMPosted by Valenlus
Or is that happening as we speak?


Eh? Alliance are becoming more good by the second. Horde can barely get much more evil at this point.
12/02/2012 05:59 PMPosted by Katarn
Horde can barely get much more evil at this point.


Legion
Is it possible that there will ever be a "moral swap" between the Alliance and Horde? Or is that happening as we speak? Are the Alliance getting a little more darker and the Horde showing good?

Or is that completely out of the question?


The idea that factions should have been so easily identifiable as good and evil should never have been the question... but I guess it is now.
12/02/2012 06:09 PMPosted by Noitora
Horde can barely get much more evil at this point.


Legion


They already have the stated goal of committing genocide on the Alliance. The Legion can't get much worse than that.
12/02/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Jaelara
They already have the stated goal of committing genocide on the Alliance. The Legion can't get much worse than that.


Ehhh, the legion kills all the animals on purpose, and the land and it kills things / corrupts them -forever-.

The Horde's not quite at 'kill stuff for the lolz' levels of evil yet, Forsaken aside it's pretty utilitarian.
12/02/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Jaelara


Legion


They already have the stated goal of committing genocide on the Alliance. The Legion can't get much worse than that.


But isn't that the goal of the alliance if they were to win? The alliance would never feel safe as long as the horde races are around to reform the horde, so genocide against ALL of them seems the most practical solution.
But isn't that the goal of the alliance if they were to win? The alliance would never feel safe as long as the horde races are around to reform the horde, so genocide against ALL of them seems the most practical solution.


Not even close. Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves, and Goblins would be spared for the most part. Orcs and Forsaken would get harsher punishment.
Tauren and Blood Elves -maybe-... Trolls and goblins? Don't kid yourself, the view out here isn't anywhere near what it is ingame.
What's happening now is a moral swap. The Horde didn't use to be the bad guys.

At the start of WoW, the Alliance didn't really have any sort of claim on being "good".

They came in here with a whole lot of pretty recent baggage about putting Orcs in camps, an attempted purging of the Blood Elves on pretty flimsy "You RECEIVED HELP FROM THESE LIZARD-PEOPLE WHO ARE CLEARLY EVIL, even though, uh, they only recently surfaced in any real numbers!" grounds, and Admiral Proudmoore showing up in Kalimdor to throw a big Kill All Orcs kegger.

Then, on top of it, they had a bunch of "corruption" undertones going on in WoW itself. The Defias were running rampant, a black dragon was living in Stormwind Keep, and Staghelm was a giant jerk doing something sketchy with Morrowgrain. Horde-side, you had Thrall and his inspiring story and his "I love eeeveryone" mentality - and the Tauren, who were basically as innocent as an eight-foot-tall baby with giant horns.

There was also Tirion, who was clearly a major hero - but got exiled for befriending an Orc.

The "Horde are monsters!" stuff dated back to WCII, and had gotten softened and sanded down since. If anything, viewing them as Monsters was the bigoted, narrow-minded attitude of some humans - and a reason why many humans were "bad".

For a while, the two sides were pretty morally ambiguous. People could argue that the Alliance made a show of nobility, but were really corrupt, rigid, and intolerant underneath - while the Horde were rough but valued honor and were close to the spirits/the land. People could also argue that the Horde shouldn't be left off the hook for what they did to the Draenei and the humans during the first two wars. There were plenty of "bad guys" out in the world - but the two factions were grey.

The shift happened more recently.

The Alliance hasn't been doing anything really wicked or bigoted for a while now. Varian was a bit of a jerk for a while ("May this death god take you all") but there was another, even bigger jerk on the Horde-side goading him. Since then, Varian has settled down - while the Horde jerk just got louder and louder.

Alliance leaders talk, non-stop, about ending the war. One of the "evilest" things the Alliance has done in recent times was the attack on Taurajo - but if you talk to the general who did it, he's not a warmonger. He keeps talking about how he regrets it, how the Alliance can't resort to butchery because, if they do, the war will never end, and how he intentionally let the civilians leave, even against the wishes of some other Alliance leaders.

In MoP, it's even MORE extreme. At this point, it's hard to find Alliance members who won't go into a speech about how this war isn't about hatred and how they don't hate Orcs, and would totally settle for peace if the Horde would just agree to stop taking everything and killing everyone who has a problem with it.

The Alliance has been completely white-washed. All of our jerks and shady characters are gone. Staghelm went craaaaazy (and introduced us to his equally-crazy daughter-in-law, with her craaaazy "I'm upset because the Horde killed her child and Malfurion and the Cenarion Circle do nothing about it" nonsense). Maiev never even made it back into the game - she went crazy in a book. We haven't seen a new Garithos, or Blackmoor, or Daelin Proudmoore show up in WoW at all. Varian's all about patience and "what's right" these days. We don't even have any characters doing the "when you stare into the abyss" thing - they're not turning just as bad as they think the Orcs are. We're just dedicated to being calm, and rational, and trying hard as we can not to "sink to their level". It's downright annoying - though maybe that's because the best example of this is when Varian lectures a twelve-thousand-year-old woman who has been leading armies before his kingdom even existed in much the same way that he lectured his son ten minutes earlier.

To be honest, I don't think that does any favors to Horde players. Most of them - especially the long-time Horde players - didn't sign up for the Legion of Doom. The Horde began life as a sort of Anti-hero - a "rough, angry guy with a heart of gold" sort of thing - and anyone who came to the Horde for that is feeling really out of place right now.

Though, really, I don't think the Horde players who defended their faction's actions up to this point did their faction any favors, either. It might've been better to object to it as it was happening to convince the writers NOT to go down this route - instead of trying to defend their faction like it was a real-life political party.
12/02/2012 06:33 PMPosted by Skytotem
They already have the stated goal of committing genocide on the Alliance. The Legion can't get much worse than that.


Ehhh, the legion kills all the animals on purpose, and the land and it kills things / corrupts them -forever-.

The Horde's not quite at 'kill stuff for the lolz' levels of evil yet, Forsaken aside it's pretty utilitarian.


Garrosh has specifically stated he plans to take over the whole of Azeroth multiple times, as as late as Tides of War, he has openly said he plans to wipe them out in the process.

I mean, technically I guess the Horde will leave behind living creatures and plants for their own colonization and use (Other than the Forsaken, who will kill that stuff too), but in the end, it comes down to the same end for the Alliance. Whether the Legion destroys Azeroth utterly, or the Horde preserves but only for themselves, the Alliance is completely dead, along with the vast majority of its membership, except a handful who live either in slavery or as hiding outcasts and bandits on the outskirts of society.
Oh I admit there's no difference for the Alliance.

I'm talking on a grand cosmic scale.
Worgen, Night Elves, and Dark Irons in favor of the more traditional Human, High Elf, and mountain Dwarf team-up?

A Dark Alliance would be great.
@ Sylassanna

I thought that was a great read.

Some bits felt pinched and as if I couldn't get the full story. And of course there's much more to be said about all the matters you brought up.

But overall, great read with view points and sensitivities you don't hear very much on this forum.
12/02/2012 06:53 PMPosted by Skytotem
Tauren and Blood Elves -maybe-... Trolls and goblins? Don't kid yourself, the view out here isn't anywhere near what it is ingame.


What be happenin' on the Sotrmwind harbour, mon?
12/02/2012 08:18 PMPosted by Arkturas
What be happenin' on the Sotrmwind harbour, mon?


Ah yes, because the few trolls in the harbor are going to help people get over all their friends that were killed by non-darkspear jungle trolls.

You're being naive and simplistic here, after the trouble the gurubashi caused, and historical conflict with trolls, no one in the alliance is going to care about Vol'jins help.
But isn't that the goal of the alliance if they were to win? The alliance would never feel safe as long as the horde races are around to reform the horde, so genocide against ALL of them seems the most practical solution.


The Alliance already had the chance to do exactly this and didn't.


You're being naive and simplistic here, after the trouble the gurubashi caused, and historical conflict with trolls, no one in the alliance is going to care about Vol'jins help.


Well....I think it'd be realistically written if most of them didn't.

But this is WoW, all the humans have a chance to be written as having the graciousness and insight of God.
12/02/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Sylassanna
For a while, the two sides were pretty morally ambiguous. People could argue that the Alliance made a show of nobility, but were really corrupt, rigid, and intolerant underneath - while the Horde were rough but valued honor and were close to the spirits/the land. People could also argue that the Horde shouldn't be left off the hook for what they did to the Draenei and the humans during the first two wars. There were plenty of "bad guys" out in the world - but the two factions were grey.


This argument was just as wrong back in Vanilla as it is now.

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