Origin of the Mogu

Story Forum
12/02/2012 09:15 AMPosted by Plagueworm
The troll empires appear to have been hostile to every single race they encountered, no matter how close in proximity or how powerful.

Except the Orcs, the Mogu, the Wolvar and anyone not attacking their territories.

I have to emphasize the fact that every attempt at diplomacy with the Trolls has been met with success. Each event people cite as examples of the Trolls being universally aggressive can be traced back to someone invading lands that belonged to the Trolls.
Except the Orcs, the Mogu, the Wolvar and anyone not attacking their territories.

I have to emphasize the fact that every attempt at diplomacy with the Trolls has been met with success. Each event people cite as examples of the Trolls being universally aggressive can be traced back to someone invading lands that belonged to the Trolls.


This.

I don't see why everyone's so deadset on clinging to the WC3 manual that said all trolls were evil :\
I'd like to point out that all 3 of those races are hopelessly aggressive.

I also like to think Wolvar and Trolls weren't really allies, so much as the Trolls let them think they were really useful but just kept them around as pets. I don't imagine those idiots could do much in the way of diplomacy.

The Orcs allied with the trolls on two separate occasions, one to get their land back, and the second for protection. The former time they dropped their alliance with them like a sack of hot rocks once it didn't work out.

Point here being that the trolls have typically aligned themselves with other very aggressive races with imperialistic and expansionistic goals. I'm not saying that's a bad thing in and of itself, but we never saw the Trolls attempt to ally with intruders and bring them into the fold. While yes, the Humans and Elves both fought the Trolls for their land, the latter had been on the land longer and likely knew about their presence before hand but attacked intruders simply because they were. I'd like some clarification if it was the Humans/Elves that attacked first or the Trolls.

I would also like to know what exactly the Troll and Mogu relationship was like though.
These are the first two sentences on the official Blizzard page on playable trolls:

The savage trolls of Azeroth are infamous for their cruelty, dark mysticism, and seething hatred for all other races. Yet one exception among the trolls is the Darkspear tribe and its cunning leader, Vol’jin.


Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/race/troll
I kind of wonder if the Mogu didn't get the start of their empire when the Aqir were killing off everything, and other races fled to territories under their control, causing them to serve the Mogu in exchange for protection.

The Mogu then go way overboard and act like hyper-controlling jerks because they feel they're strong and all the the other races owe them for saving them from the Aqir while the trolls split the actual enemy empire.
These are the first two sentences on the official Blizzard page on playable trolls:

The savage trolls of Azeroth are infamous for their cruelty, dark mysticism, and seething hatred for all other races. Yet one exception among the trolls is the Darkspear tribe and its cunning leader, Vol’jin.

You'd be hard pressed to like people when virtually every race on the planet has spent the last 16 000 years invading your territories, smashing your empires into the dust, killing you on sight and raiding your cities for loot.

Once again, the Trolls' distrust for the other races can very easily be traced back to everyone else's aggression.
12/02/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Kellick
Once again, the Trolls' distrust for the other races can very easily be traced back to everyone else's aggression.


So what's the explanation for the extremely cozy relationship between the distrustful trolls, and the warmongering, superiority-complex mogu? The mogu didn't try to enslave the trolls, nor did they try to exterminate them as they did with the mantid.

If you're basing your argument on the premise that the trolls are only hostile when another race invades their territory (a theory I happen to disagree with), then you're implying that the mogu approached the Zandalari trolls with open arms of peace and friendship.

How did the Imperialistic mogu and easily-offended trolls become allies?
12/02/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Plagueworm
So what's the explanation for the extremely cozy relationship between the distrustful trolls, and the warmongering, superiority-complex mogu? The mogu didn't try to enslave the trolls, nor did they try to exterminate them as they did with the mantid.

Same thing which has caused peaceful partnership between disparate groups in any number of historical cases. Neither had anything the other group was willing or able over which to go to war, but both had something to gain from partnership with the other.

Maybe the Mogu respected the strength of the Zandalari who were able to defeat the Aqir at their full strength and knew there was more to be gained from partnership than war.

Meanwhile, we know the Trolls weren't interested in conquest and expansion after having defeated the Aqir, so they had no reason to go to war with the Mogu if the latter wasn't going to threaten them or their lands.

Edit: Not to mention the fact this dates back to before the rest of the planet made killing the Trolls and taking their stuff at every occasion its mission.
12/02/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Kellick
Same thing which has caused peaceful partnership between disparate groups in any number of historical cases.


I guess if we were talking about historical cases, you'd have a point. We're talking about the mogu, described as evil, imperialistic, and believing they are superior to every other race; and trolls which are described as cruel and seething with hatred for all other races.

12/02/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Kellick
Maybe the Mogu respected the strength of the Zandalari who were able to defeat the Aqir at their full strength and knew there was more to be gained from partnership than war.


There is no evidence in the game that the mogu ever respected any other race under any circumstances. Other races existed to be conquered, enslaved, or destroyed. For example, the mantid.

12/02/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Kellick
they had no reason to go to war with the Mogu if the latter wasn't going to threaten them or their lands.


You're right, if the mogu weren't a threat, the trolls would have no reason to go to war. The question you're avoiding is - why are the mogu and trolls allies at all? You could certainly make a case for the trolls being overwhelmed by the mogu and afraid of starting another war; you could hardly make a similar case for the mogu. They were imperial, expansionist, and believed every other race was inferior and fit only for slavery.

If the mogu have a troll origin, it makes A LOT more sense for the two races to cooperate and even be on friendly terms.

Edit: corrected typo
12/02/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Plagueworm
you could hardly make a similar case for the mogu. They were imperial, expansionist, and believed every other race was inferior and fit only for slavery.

And they were faced with an empire which, at the time, spanned the entirety of the damned continent, and which was able to quash the whole of the Aqir's armies when the Mogu were still struggling with a tiny subset thereof.

Imperialistic or no, that's got to be a little bit daunting.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible for there to be a Trollish origin to the Mogu. It's actually a very interesting theory with a lot of merit worth considering (and it would reinforce the "all raid is troll raid" sub-joke, but that's an aside).

I'm just saying it's hardly the only plausible explanation.
12/02/2012 11:33 AMPosted by Kellick
And they were faced with an empire which, at the time, spanned the entirety of the damned continent, and which was able to quash the whole of the Aqir's armies when the Mogu were still struggling with a tiny subset thereof.


This sounds impressive, yet the troll empire was put down by elves. Elves. And while the aqir were created by Old Gods, it appears that the mantid were far more powerful as they had direct aid from at least one Old God that we know of.

12/02/2012 11:33 AMPosted by Kellick
Imperialistic or no, that's got to be a little bit daunting.


Okay, let's say you're correct, and the mogu were terrified of the trolls. Mogu history shows that they'd rather build a wall, isolate themselves, and send out slave armies to keep themselves safe. Peace is not an option for the mogu.
12/02/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Plagueworm
This sounds impressive, yet the troll empire was put down by elves.

With a monopoly on the control of a literal well of unlimited power.

The Roman empire wouldn't be any less of a threat to, say, the Gauls, had the Carthaginians magically gained access to ICBMs years later.
12/02/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Kellick
With a monopoly on the control of a literal well of unlimited power.


Did someone other than the mogu have access to the waters of the vale?
12/02/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Plagueworm
Did someone other than the mogu have access to the waters of the vale?


Well of Eternity...?
12/02/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Skytotem
Well of Eternity...?


Exactly. The night elves had the Well of Eternity, the mogu had the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

As Kellick says, the night elves had a monopoly on a well of unlimited power. So did the mogu.
So are we assuming Well of eternity and the waters of the Vale are connected somehow?

Also i like to point out that the Mogu did not ally with the Twin empires but with the Zandalari. Even in the back story of Order of Cloud Serpent, we see that only ZANDALARI bat riders fought indicating no contact with either Amani or Gurubashi. So for further discussion its safe to assume the Mogu knew only about Zandalari.
12/02/2012 01:25 PMPosted by Ttm
So are we assuming Well of eternity and the waters of the Vale are connected somehow?


I'm assuming that both are powerful sources of magic, and were both capable of uplifting primitive races into more powerful beings. The jinyu and mogu were uplifted by the Vale, the night elves were uplifted by the Well of Eternity. I would assume that both had the ability to confer amazing powers, but beyond that, no - I don't think there's a direct connection.

12/02/2012 01:25 PMPosted by Ttm
Also i like to point out that the Mogu did not ally with the Twin empires but with the Zandalari.


Agreed. If the original race were dire trolls of the Zandalari Empire, then it would make absolute sense for the newly uplifted mogu to maintain a cooperative relationship with that kingdom.

Again, my original thesis here is that the primitive race of brutes uplifted by the waters of the Vale were dire trolls, and not some previously unknown, never-before-seen race. There are enough similarities between trolls in general and the mogu to make it - in my mind, anyway - a very compelling theory.

I'm sad to say that I expect my theory will be wrong. The mogu origin will either never be explained ever (most likely), or it will turn out to be some new "primitive" race introduced in a raid patch.
I'd rather Mogu be a new unique race, not have everything so damned connected.
Exactly. The night elves had the Well of Eternity, the mogu had the Vale of Eternal Blossoms.

As Kellick says, the night elves had a monopoly on a well of unlimited power. So did the mogu.


The mogu never fought the night elves they were defeated beforehand by the rebellion.

EDIT:

Also, the Vale seems to be different from the well, not nearly as powerful at least.
12/02/2012 01:36 PMPosted by Skytotem
Also, the Vale seems to be different from the well, not nearly as powerful at least.


Or the Mogu did not try to draw power from it. We cant know.

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