Exaggerated Complaints: 5.1 Breakdown (PvP)

Rogue
Thanks! Trying so hard to encourage rogues to keep playing, we're fine :\
11/28/2012 08:36 AMPosted by Revaks
Other than mobility and your obsession with how weak Versatility is, what are these "major issues"?


1) Prey on the Weak, Night stalker being boring passive talents

2) All specs playing way to similarly

3) Shadow walk.....nuff said

4) Lack of clear "niche" (we are supposed to be the control class...yet our control is nothing special compared to others)

Just to name a few.

Single Target Killing Spree (This would be too strong if Killing Spree remains as it is... it would basically be an i-win button. There would need to be penalties to making it single target)


Not quite what I was asking for (single target via glyph or BF reworking not just making it single target baseline)

However....if single target KSp is OP....why allow it to hit the same target multiply times anyway?

Why is isolating a target then poping KSp not OP, but spending a Major glyph slot to make KSp always single target OP?

Shadowstep Baseline (if this happens, other things must change. Blizzard will not and SHOULD NOT give us Prep AND Shadowstep again, not if Combat and Assassination can make use of those two abilities combined. It would just be too strong, like HARP was... which was too strong. That is a fact, not an opinion.... and believe me, I LOVED HARP.)


SHs baseling is nothing like HARP...

ShS is self is on a 24sec CD (longer than most gap openers) and doesnt work while rooted, and no longer gives a damage buff.....it wouldnt be that OP baseline. I dont mind keeping it as a talent...if it was as powerful as a talent should be.

Versatility make-over (Sure... but what can they give us? I see a lot of complaints but little rational ideas)


Then you REALLY havent looked hard enough...there have been a lot of very long threads both in beta and shortly after MoP release about what to do with the 90 tier.

I mean, honestly. There's nothing class-breaking about the things I've read about that seem so utterly and desprately necessary. What am I not seeing that you so clearly are to have such a disposition towards our current state?


You keep focusing on "Class breaking" things.....just because an issue isnt a gaping wound doesnt mean it should be ignored.

1000 small cuts are just as bad as one big gash.
All I have to say is this, get with 2 other rogues, get shuriken toss, deadly throw, and subterfuge. Get Para and Wound poison on, get max ranged and watch what happens. :D
11/28/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Sideburnz
All I have to say is this, get with 2 other rogues, get shuriken toss, deadly throw, and subterfuge. Get Para and Wound poison on, get max ranged and watch what happens. :D


The warrior charges in and blows them up in 2sec?

:P
Actually if in equal gear, this is what I did.

I went and while subterfuge still going with other rogues, I started spamming shuriken throw. Damage seemed slow at first, but then THE STUFF STARTED TO GO DOWN once I hit deadly throw and I got points so fast for it.

As for war stuns, not much you can do, but shado step helped me when I played around with that. If wars only have one charge left, you can sometimes anticipate it and shadowstep it like in BC.

You should see what happens when you blow the pvp dps trinket, adren rush, and shadowblades TROLLLLLL, not only do wound and para poison hit them, but you can spam it so fast with adren rush and cds up that they get stunned in the process too trying to get to you (from para stacking). And if they get too close you could use the points to stun for 8 seconds with kidney shot lol and it does not share DR with para poison stun (was playing as combat/revealing strike).

^ I doubt this works in arena, I'm just doing this for lulz in bgs and revealing strike also makes deadly throw do 35% more damage. This reminds me of how hilarious the rogue gloves set bonus was in BC to make deadly throw interrupt a cast and for that talent that made you have a chance to generate combo points, you could spam deadly throw constantly interrupting casts lol.
Shadowstep Baseline (if this happens, other things must change. Blizzard will not and SHOULD NOT give us Prep AND Shadowstep again, not if Combat and Assassination can make use of those two abilities combined. It would just be too strong, like HARP was... which was too strong. That is a fact, not an opinion.... and believe me, I LOVED HARP.)

Versatility make-over (Sure... but what can they give us? I see a lot of complaints but little rational ideas)


Easy solution: Remove Prep, adjust cooldowns to compensate for it's loss, make ShS baseline, make Anticipation baseline, come up with some lvl 90 talents that don't suck.
Nice thread OP. It seems Blizz is actually sticking to their guns in regards to using the nerfbat for 5.1. Instead of drastic overhauling, they did tone down the three most devastating culprits atm, Warriors, Hunters, and Mages. Through Warrior CD stacking can still be a problem in terms of massive burst if you're not paying attention, overall Blizz did what they said they were going to do. Nerf the outliers, let it shake out, and reevaluate. We still need a little mobility love, and perhaps need to learn to embrace different talents against different comps (think of it like a game of chess in the preparation stage of arena, playing the metagame).

I see a mage, I'm switching to BoS. I see melee heavy, I'm changing to either crippling or paralytic. I see a fear (shadow/lock) comp. I'm switching to prep for a double cloak. AoE heavy, I'm taking subterfuge. That's one of the things I do like, the having to think a little bit again.

In due time guys. At least we're not getting the Cata Warrior treatment, the Ret WotLK treatment, or the TBC to Cata 4.0 hunter treatment, where we aren't looked at at all in PvP. In due time, we'll shine again. I'm very interested to see how Sub pans out when we're all in full Malev with both upgrades, especially those who are capable of getting the T2 weapons with the 2/2 upgrades. It'll give us an idea of what to expect from the gear scaling when we're wearing 491s and either 478 or 498 weapons respectively.
This is a good, thoughtful, well written writeup. Thanks for doing it! Also thanks for giving you opinions even though it opens you up for criticism.
11/28/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Sephara
I'm changing to either crippling


You should never be using crip with the 4pc though.

Did you mean leeaching?
11/28/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Sephara
In due time guys. At least we're not getting the Cata Warrior treatment, the Ret WotLK treatment, or the TBC to Cata 4.0 hunter treatment, where we aren't looked at at all in PvP


Last I checked rogues were at 3% in arena popularity......so depends on your def of "not looked at at all"
@ Timat

I should have put more context to my crippling point. The 4pc does proc the effect, but only at 50%, Crip actually applied, when shiv'ed on put it at 70, which is why I use it. It's more about my comp. I've not seen much of a survivability boost from using leeching over elusiveness or (failing at) cheat death, though I suppose I could test it out. Still in the getting used to it phase with the talents and rogue synergy with a DK, my primary 2s partner.

To reiterate, I'm not saying we're in a great place right now,but we do have history on our side when it comes to scaling. 3% representation really only means a lot to the highest skill players, who wish to remain viable in 2.2k+ there's good reason for that at the moment. But as I've said before, I'm a mediocre rogue that plays around the 1500 level, and at that level of play, the small changes here and there are helping the enjoyment factor, at least to me.

It's been funny here lately though, since the stigma with rogues in pvp has seemed to sink in to the general player base, where I used to be ignored in arena, I'm actually starting to get focused switched to now that I can put out some decent burst and a little more pressure. And really it just feels good, despite the low MMR, to beat a War/Mage or War/Hunter team with a Rogue and DK.
11/28/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Sephara
I should have put more context to my crippling point. The 4pc does proc the effect, but only at 50%, Crip actually applied, when shiv'ed on put it at 70, which is why I use it. It's more about my comp. I've not seen much of a survivability boost from using leeching over elusiveness or (failing at) cheat death, though I suppose I could test it out. Still in the getting used to it phase with the talents and rogue synergy with a DK, my primary 2s partner.


I dont know.......ignoring a 4pc set bonus completely seems like too big of a drop...if that does turn out to be the norm it needs to get looked at (I think the 4pc itself has that issue with losing the shiv of crip)

11/28/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Sephara
3% representation really only means a lot to the highest skill players,


Eh....yes and no.

If rogue were really that great in PvP then more people would play them....competitive or leisure players alike.

If people dont find a class fun in PvP they stop playing it.

11/28/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Sephara
But as I've said before, I'm a mediocre rogue that plays around the 1500 level, and at that level of play, the small changes here and there are helping the enjoyment factor, at least to me.


As am I. Actually I dont really do arena that much. I get on trade and ask if anyone wants to run them for points and thats about it.

But I still think that while these changes are nice...they dont really change that much.
Most rogues aren't aware that even though rogue is in the minority, one has already reached 2400+ in 3s on bg9, go figure.
11/28/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Sideburnz
Most rogues aren't aware that even though rogue is in the minority, one has already reached 2400+ in 3s on bg9, go figure.


So?

You can pick out player in EVERY class that shine...whats the point?
11/28/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Sideburnz
Most rogues aren't aware that even though rogue is in the minority, one has already reached 2400+ in 3s on bg9, go figure.

One person's achievement doesn't speak for the rest of the community.
11/28/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Takanashi
I'm enjoying it, its now totally viable to blind -> vanish -> sap someone in arenas. I still feel squishy but I think I'm doing some stuff wrong. Mobility is still tough, but I have yet to try BoS. I tried it before at 60 energy and it was REALLY nice against mages and shamans. I'm thinking now I'll just carry a bunch of tomes to swap between ss and BoS depending on comp =D


you don't need tomes to switch glyphs during arena.
im lovin ST and BoS... i have 19% haste and 15k pvp power... i think only things we need are shorter Defensive CDs.. other than that nerf warrior damage
Revaks,

Great post, it's good to see a little optimism, focus, and attention to detail. Still, I disagree with some of the things you've said. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Blizzard hater or on the "we got nothing this patch!" bandwagon, clearly we got a lot of great stuff, and the Blind/Vanish CD reductions were sorely needed, but I don't think Rogues are quite there yet ... and I think we'll see that over the next month.

There are several things that still really bother me.

First off, I don't think the specs are quite equal yet. Sure, each has their own advantages (pressure, control, burst), but I think Sub's got just a bit more.

ER on SnD is in several ways superior to Vitality/Combat Potency and Venomous Wounds. Combat Rogues need to physically stay on a target and auto-attack to get their full energy regen, and Mut Rogues have a shorter buff with an even shorter duration dispellable poison requirement that requires melee range to start/refresh and doesn't work on bubbles.

HaT too is a superior cp mechanic than Seal Fate and Revealing Strike. Yes, it has a 2s timer on it, but it procs free combo points at range from team-mates crits. It's kind of confusing therefore that Blizzard nerfed Seal Fate to not work with Toss, but leaves HaT alone. Of course, Combat's got nothing on either! Then again, Combat isn't exactly juggling a lot of finishers.

Don't get me wrong, Mut and Combat are in infinitely better places in PvP than in Cata, but I think there's still some work to be done.

Secondly, I'm a little worried about choices between talents and glyphs. I'm sure Blizzard has a much more complete list of who's taking what than we do, but it still seems as if many talents can't compete, or are simply out of place.

You asked about Versatility, but I've seen no shortage of complaints and suggestions over the last year that it should simply place combo points on the Rogue. Heck, it's more requested than Swirly Ball ever was. I'll grant, harder to code, but it'd be a win-win for Blizzard and customers.

You mentioned Prep v. Step. Though I disagree with you that the two together are too powerful, I'll simply put it as this: In these forums (granted, not all encompassing by any means) I've seen an abundance of players who absolutely despise this "choice," and a dearth of those who like it (or are willing to risk humiliation by saying so). Prep needs to go, one way (baseline) or another (removal). Again, it'd be a win-win for Blizzard and players.

Many in this thread have mentioned how great Deadly Throw is with Shuriken Toss. It's nice to see them happy, but I'll be surprised if that turns out true in Arena/BG. The problem with Deadly Throw isn't its damage, we don't need to be Hunters, but it's CC. Tell me, honestly, how often do you have 5cp at range during that 2 second cast? It's rare even for Sub with HaT and Toss.

The one I have the most problem with however is tier 5 (not 4!), largely due to Prey on the Weak. Now tell me, honestly, do you see any PvE use for it? Bosses are immune, trash dies too fast, and even solo/questing sees better damage out of other abilities (not CS/KS). It's a PvP talent, pure and simple. Meanwhile, what do we have on the PvP set? Deadly Brew, which would be useful to all Rogues.

Yes, I know, that'd preclude Brew with Paralytic or Dirty Tricks, but that's fine! No, really, it is! If the Glyph of Debilitation included something OTHER than just Evis/Envenom (really, only Rupture fits), and both that glyph AND Deadly Throw had their snare durations normalized, yes normalized up to 8 seconds, that'd create a wonderful choice tree. Rogues could choose to run:
- Deadly Brew for their snare,
- Paralytic, but get a snare from Deadly Throw and Debilitation.
- Dirty Tricks, and get a snare from either Crippling or Deadly Throw and Debilitation.

It would provide a much better choice tree with several play-styles.

While at it, Blizzard could look at dispels killing less than the entire stack of Paralytic at once. It stacks so slow (20%), slower than DP used to (30%). Losing it to dispels, even dispels not aimed at it, renders it a mere root on Shiv.

------

Anyhow, I'm not going to say Rogues got nothing, or that 5.1 wasn't beneficial, but I'm going to disagree with you about where Rogues need to be in order to be competitive.
Lotta good stuff going in this thread, thanks for all the feedback and discussion (even you Timat, no matter how much I may disagree with you on a few things.)

Got some playtime in last night, not much though... but I definitely noticed some changes.

90 second Blind is even better than I imagined... I can blind fearlessly early in a match, forcing trinkets and setting up a kill 90 seconds later (It's really no that hard to stay alive that long, folks... communication and peels work wonders.)

2m Vanish is, of course, great. On the same CD as killing spree really lets me be a lot more agressive with my swaps (Vanish - Redirect 2-3pts - Shadowstep - Garrote - Killing Spree - full kidney on casters is incredible AND is now doable on KS cooldown now if you use your vanish offensively)

Wound poison damage boost is both noticeable and reassuring that it is the go-to poison for PvP.

Zero energy kick is wonderful as well... it's a small change that really DOES help our energy starve issues.

Shuriken is really good now guys. It's REALLY good.

I can't wait to get more playtime in tonight, but for now... big ups!!
Shuriken is really good now guys. It's REALLY good.


Hows its changed that much? Its double damage from +10yds away.....but it was never used for damage in the first place.

ATM my ST hits clothies for around 6k and plate for around 3k.....I dont get how that is really good compared to what it did before...its meh at best.

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