A gladiator's view on the Dk current state

Arenas
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12/10/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Ultor
If you want more mobility, you'd have to give up your abilities that immobilize people. If you can't find a use for Remorseless winter, then don't use it. Strangulate at a 1min cd broke healer survivability last time that was allowed. You want to double the effectiveness of AMS? You're anti-cast, and now you want to be anti-melee on top of that? I could go on and on. Get a time machine and play WotLK or keep dreaming.


Unfortunately, DKs are no longer the anti-caster class. Maybe in a time machine back in WotLK, but not anymore. With a holy paladin on the team DKs maybe get 50% uptime on a caster, without one, 25% is realistic rofl. Warriors and ferals are probably the closest melee to "anti-caster" (as well as anti-melee lol) right now.

Think about it: Strangulate at a 2 min CD costs a blood rune, is off the GCD, is dispellable, and lasts 5 seconds. This is the ONLY reliable CC a DK has. Ferals have multiple stuns and instant cyclone with great burst and mobility. Warriors have 20 sec. shockwave, an extra interrupt, and an aoe fear with great burst and mobility. Rets have a 30 second 6 second stun and hungering cold. Does the class with the least amount of CC need to also have that one CC be the weakest in the game?

Lastly, exaggerations are fun. "Can you buff our survivability?" = "U WANT 2 B ANTI-MELEE AND ANTI-CASTER L0L." very constructive.

A big problem with DKs currently is that IBF costs 40 runic power and our immobilize costs us an offensive rune. It would be like Die by the Sword costing a warrior 50 rage, Divine Protection costing a paladin 3 holy power. Imagine if Charge or Heroic Leap require rage. Some of these archaic rune/runic power costs need to be lifted. That would be a boon to DK survivability/mobility with a relatively simple, quick fix.
Our damage is fine Can we have hungering cold back please. I don't even care if i have to cast it. To be honest, Instant hungering cold (on a 1.5 min cd on par with warrior fear and blind) doesnt even sound that OP with how much instant CC there is in the game now. I want some sort of CC.

Only CC i have is a 2 min strangulate or a 1 min stun witch i choose to run with and a 25 sec grip that i can choose to use to interrupt heals. The downside is if i use this grip to interrupt, my target will most likely be one step ahead of me so its not a reliable CC

give pally blinding light and remove hungering cold good lodgic.


This argument is flawed and out of date at that. "Lolol take stun-removal from hand of freedom and add to Icebound Fortitude for DKs. good 'lodgic'."

On topic however, I do agree that DKs need some major tweaking. I'll be real with you, my sympathy level for DKs is only based entirely on the fact that you guys really are super squishy, and as far as plate wearers or melee go, I feel that Ret and Enhance are above you in survivability but not by much, you guys definitely got the short end of the stick.

You need more cc, that is far more effective, and isn't countered by your own utility. IE How Hungering cold was in Cata seemed acceptable. Perhaps changing the way you can slow would be a good idea, though I do feel the ability to do both nearly endlessly would be a little too much, massive damage blanketed ontop of too much control and slow would be bordering on being overpowered, so they'd definitely need to implement it in a way that couldn't be easily abused.

As for survivability, your AMS being buffed to also absorb some physical damage doesn't necessarily seem too overpowered...the OP did a pretty good job explaining the pros and cons of such a buff, however I feel to have magic\physical damage utility to both, you'd need to get rid of the fact it makes you immune to CC during it. As a ret I'll compare it to our abilities for argument sake. We as ret are forced to pick between 40% flat magic damage reduction via Divine Protection, or if glyphed, 20% for each. This is on a 1 minute cooldown (we do have Devotion Aura which makes us immune to silence and interrupt, and also gives 20% magic damage reduction). Now both have situations where they are needed so perhaps making a glyph like this for DKs wouldn't be a bad idea. I simply feel that if you're increasing your survivability while also limiting the cc you're vulnerable to during the duration, it'd be just too powerful.

Overall the OP made a really great post with reasonable ideas.
"Mobility, yes, but you have Death Grip and ranged attacks. Survivability is low after CDs are burned." --GC twitter

Looks like I'll have to keep playing the warrior :(. From his posts it sounds like DKs aren't even on the radar for potential mobility let alone survivability buffs. Your class is in a sad state when you have the least amount of CCs, the worst survivability, and poor mobility as a MELEE class. Sure, DKs have good damage; too bad everyone from warriors, to spriests, to mages, to locks, to ferals, to enhance shamans have good damage while being much stronger in other aspects of the game.
"Mobility, yes, but you have Death Grip and ranged attacks. Survivability is low after CDs are burned." --GC twitter

Looks like I'll have to keep playing the warrior :(. From his posts it sounds like DKs aren't even on the radar for potential mobility let alone survivability buffs. Your class is in a sad state when you have the least amount of CCs, the worst survivability, and poor mobility as a MELEE class. Sure, DKs have good damage; too bad everyone from warriors, to spriests, to mages, to locks, to ferals, to enhance shamans have good damage while being much stronger in other aspects of the game.


Only goes to show how much of a moron GC is. Our only ability could be Icy Touch and he'd still say "Mobility, but you have ranged attacks." And I used to think the problem was the rest of the PvP team. I was sadly mistaken.
3v3 arenas. Survivability is low EVEN with CDs burned. With the exception of AMS, every other defensive cooldown is a two minute CD without significant impact (Lichborne, death pact). How are two minute CDs useful when other classes have 30 second burst? Empower rune weapon is lack luster for a 5 min cooldown? A mage has ice block and 3 minute cold snap. Many times when teams focus fire on DK, a DK has to burn ALL two minute CDs just to survive. Please don't talk about blood presence, cuz the game is lost once you have to go into blood presence.

I can't quite put my finger on it. Something just seems to be lacking for DKs to put out enough pressure. If this class is meant to put out pressure by putting out the most damage, it has really done a lackluster job.
Just about every cd, whether it's defensive or offensive, is 2 minutes or more and overall seems lackluster.

Whereas defensive/offensive CDs for other classes seems to be a lot lower (30 seconds)?

This class needs a major overhaul...
I also play a mage, rogue, warlock.

Mage and warlock easily have burst windows every 30 seconds, along with spammable cc and a silence every 24 seconds. Mage can stun and root every 30 seconds, and warlock can blood fear every 10. Rogues are somewhat in a bad spot now and are somewhat similiar to dks in that CDs are long, but at least they have a 1 minute burst move.

I think a lot of other classes have CDs that are 30 seconds or less. So I am not quite sure why CDs for DKs are so long.
this is regarding pinkums post i saw on AJ

As a multi glad DK; I, pinkums, or any top DKs know exactly what he is talking about in terms of high end DK pvp. I think this is a great and much needed post to hear the voice of an actual good DK explaining what needs to change.

to be fair, i would go ahead and say instand aoe hungering cold would be a little bit crazy in terms we want to get rid of instant (especially aoe) cc in arena. But, my idea is to have a disease type CC that instantly freezes the target you choose and THAT TARGET has an undispellable disease on them that works as the present remorseless winter when they are out and after 5 ticks it freezes everyone around them. This gives DKs a follow up CC to after they make someone trinket and cant follow up, and also causes the target you froze to make a decision, be a mindless pve scrub and freeze his teem mates around him or gtfo and be pro but resulting in the DKs favor of him running away.

also, to !@#$% a little why do classes (looking at mages) can have aoe instant cc... there is no way someone should beable to instant RoF and instant sheep right out of it and doing other mage stuff still bursting more than any class... while a dk can um... strangulate every 2 min to maybe get the cd of a 2 min trinket... strang should be 1.5 min

feel free to comment
Thats sounds cool. I do agree with the instant hungering cold being alittle OP. Maybe hungering cold isn't the way to go but i 100% think some of the DK ability really do need to be reworked as the OP stated some nice ideas.

Also its nice to see blizzard nerfing every those god classes (mage warrior more recently) so i guess we indirectly get buffed lol.
They do need to nerf more of mages, rdruids, spriests to make the game in general more balanced.

I was also thinking to make unholy viable is to buff the pet. Our ghoul is a 2 min cool down, which is just stupid seeing it gets one shot especially after we pet sac. It shouldnt have a cool down or atleast like 30 seconds or be casted like the water elle. I am happy we can atleast heal it, but we need a instant remove from snares bind for our pet and for god sakes take the stun off GCD or make it cost 0 energy
Frostbomb nerf and taste for blood nerf, along with the healing nerf. Hearing PHDK is doing decent right now (its not KFC, but hey). Might try it out this weekend, will stream if anyone is interested.
Thats sounds cool. I do agree with the instant hungering cold being alittle OP. Maybe hungering cold isn't the way to go but i 100% think some of the DK ability really do need to be reworked as the OP stated some nice ideas.

Also its nice to see blizzard nerfing every those god classes (mage warrior more recently) so i guess we indirectly get buffed lol.

What about a hungering cold that worked like hunter trap?
AMS would also absorb/reduce physical damage taken by 40%

Shield wall is 40%

AMS is a 1min cd. Wall is 5 minutes. Yeah, okay... Stop using icebound while dps-ing and you'll survive better. It's supposed to be a risk-reward.

All of your suggestions are asking to make DKs ridiculous again - you didn't think them through with balance in mind.

DKs are fine and will scale very well with the tiers.
butthurt warriors should never post about a class when u cant even play a OP as !@#$ class to atleast 1800 scrub fgt
11/25/2012 07:29 AMPosted by Xiun
Am I the only one who thinks DKs are in a balanced state right now, just all the god classes make them feel weak?


I feel the same. But I know the feeling of wanting my utility to be at the level of classes/specs that have similar stuff just shorter cooldowns. Frankly, I think the game would be better off if they used dk's as a model for other specs. Yeah, different classes are different except we're not that different anymore, we share a lot of the same stuff its just a different name with a different cd.
12/20/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Buckybadger
AMS would also absorb/reduce physical damage taken by 40%

Shield wall is 40%

AMS is a 1min cd. Wall is 5 minutes. Yeah, okay... Stop using icebound while dps-ing and you'll survive better. It's supposed to be a risk-reward.

All of your suggestions are asking to make DKs ridiculous again - you didn't think them through with balance in mind.

DKs are fine and will scale very well with the tiers.


40% ams is ridiculous but you're comment on Icebound fortitude is dead wrong. It's used offensively because it does NOTHING for you defensively. DKs know that they will simply die even through icebound fortitude, so they blow it early in the hopes that they can burst someone down and get a kill. If they don't, the DK will die in the next minute.

DKs are really a one trick pony. DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. This is unfun to other players and unfun to DKs. It doesn't allow for a high skill cap when you have very few ineffective CCs, or the tools to aid your team. All you can do is "tunnel" and watch your health bar. All we're asking in the short term is to peel back a little on the DK "tunnel" syndrome and to be able to DO SOMETHING about our disappearing health bar.

First 30 seconds of a DK team match: Enemy team tunnels DK, DK quickly blows heal, switches to blood presence and uses icebound fortitude to survive. Cleave team kills DK. Magic team waits 5 seconds for AMS to disappear then mops up DK. There's no "GET AWAY FROM ME BUTTON" that other classes have, you can tunnel a DK through his defensives.
Thats sounds cool. I do agree with the instant hungering cold being alittle OP. Maybe hungering cold isn't the way to go but i 100% think some of the DK ability really do need to be reworked as the OP stated some nice ideas.

Also its nice to see blizzard nerfing every those god classes (mage warrior more recently) so i guess we indirectly get buffed lol.

What about a hungering cold that worked like hunter trap?


what do you mean? like you shoot it at a single person?
12/20/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Buckybadger
AMS would also absorb/reduce physical damage taken by 40%

Shield wall is 40%

AMS is a 1min cd. Wall is 5 minutes. Yeah, okay... Stop using icebound while dps-ing and you'll survive better. It's supposed to be a risk-reward.

All of your suggestions are asking to make DKs ridiculous again - you didn't think them through with balance in mind.

DKs are fine and will scale very well with the tiers.


You have never played a dk, have you?

Also, numbers can be adjusted. Its the idea that I'm after. I just kind of picked a number. Lets say 20%? Honestly if you look at it from a not warrior perspective, casters are saying the same thing. "75% is rediculous and you can glyph it to 100% and use it every 45 seconds opposed to my 4 min cd on block (or whatever it is)!" Oh but wait, even with that Dks are still squishier than casters against casters. Angry warrior up in here :|

Also#2 did you ever play against dks in season 5? Because what I'm asking for is much much different how they were back then. As in throwing 15k crits on 30k healthpools from 40 yards away, and its undodgable, unparryable, and spammable?
try lock portal as feral coupled with pillars, platforms and displacer beast.

BULL, !@#$.

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