Suggestion: LFR loot

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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That doesn't really answer my question. I don't think it's raining...


That was as direct an answer as could be provided.
12/04/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Mistabings
It did answer your question actually, he gave you proof that no one has cleared everything on heroic without doing any LFR


No he didn't. He just made a blanket statement without real justification. He's insinuating that people NEED to do it. I'm more inclined to believe that they just did it as gap fillers. What else is there to do? Just because I watch a TV show to fill in a time gap doesn't mean I have to watch TV in order to go to sleep later. He tends to do that or just say nothing at all when asked for proof. Ask him sometime and see for yourself. It's actually quite cute.

12/04/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Mistabings
Except that loot system doesn't exist any more, I am talking about the personal roll system not letting me roll for offspec, there is no one for me to be stealing gear from. All they have to do is make a window pop up when the boss dies asking which spec you want to roll for and the issue would be solved.


And considering there are tons of issues popping up all over. Many suggestions get made and some are good yet many are ignored. If it's that big of a deal, try the suggestions forum. Your suggestion might be too complex to implement, perhaps. I'm sure the devs may be thinking "Why waste time implementing a feature like that? Just go as the spec you want gear for."

That was as direct an answer as could be provided.


/whoosh
12/04/2012 01:35 AMPosted by Greyhide
Do you have any proof to back this up?


That doesn't really answer my question. I don't think it's raining...


Sorry

The answer is yes, I thought you wanted the proof ^_^, not just a blank yes or no.

You also asked if I had proof of my statement, which was 100% backed up by every single kill worldwide.

I never claimed that they needed it, just that they used LFR gear, I didn't look to see if individuals were using the gear, but I'm assuming those kills used some LFR gear, as looking at logs, they had more 4 pieces than would be available without lfr.
12/05/2012 01:39 AMPosted by Postonforums
Do you have any proof to back this up?


That doesn't really answer my question. I don't think it's raining...


Sorry

The answer is yes, I thought you wanted the proof ^_^, not just a blank yes or no.

You also asked if I had proof of my statement, which was 100% backed up by every single kill worldwide.

I never claimed that they needed it, just that they used LFR gear, I didn't look to see if individuals were using the gear, but I'm assuming those kills used some LFR gear, as looking at logs, they had more 4 pieces than would be available without lfr.


Cute attempt to save face but unfortunately, it's too late as usual. I will give you credit for the effort though.
12/05/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Greyhide
It did answer your question actually, he gave you proof that no one has cleared everything on heroic without doing any LFR


No he didn't. He just made a blanket statement without real justification.


12/04/2012 01:35 AMPosted by Greyhide
I guarantee you that nobody cleared a heroic raid this tier with nobody having done LFR.


Do you have any proof to back this up?


all 16 guilds with sha of fear heroic kills have someone with an LFR clear of each raid that was apart of their Sha of fear heroic kills

Nobody had cleared heroic sha of fear without an LFR kill


Sounds to me like he answered exactly what you asked and now you're trying to claim you asked something other than what you did, because the point you originally tried to make got shot down, which means you're more concerned about being right rather than having a discussion, the purpose of these forums. You're the one trying to save face here, not sure why you're flinging that accusation at him.

However I think the insinuation that they need to do it is absolutely correct, for them to have been able to clear at such a competitive speed. Heroic bosses are tuned assuming you have much more gear than they did, so they needed the LFR gear to bring them closer to that bar. I also think that if you asked any of them they would agree that they want the arms race of competition to be toned down by removing the ability to get loot from both LFR and normal/heroic kills in the same lockout. The issue here is that while in theory everyone can just agree not to do LFR and make the playing field even, in practice someone will cheat, which means everyone has to do it to stay competitive.

12/05/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Greyhide
And considering there are tons of issues popping up all over. Many suggestions get made and some are good yet many are ignored. If it's that big of a deal, try the suggestions forum. Your suggestion might be too complex to implement, perhaps. I'm sure the devs may be thinking "Why waste time implementing a feature like that? Just go as the spec you want gear for."


Or that they haven't read the reasons laid out in this thread before. I would have no issue (other than the annoyance of having to do it at all) if I needed gear for the same spec off every boss, the problem is that I need the end boss as my mainspec and the first two as my offspec for three of the LFRs, which means I have to do the first two bosses as ret, leave, and then do all three as holy, and the new issue that has popped up with 5.1 is I can't see which boss I'm going into, which means if I get a 2/3 while I'm trying to get the first two as ret I have to leave and take deserter because I won't be able to get the holy gear off that boss. This means that each LFR has to potential to take upwards of four hours with a bad group and bad luck with the queue, which is exactly what happened to me when I queued into the same group stuck on the last boss multiple times in a row, which I would have stayed for and helped kill if I could roll for the holy gear, but no, I was stuck as ret.

If this thread should be in a different forum the moderators will move it, if I make a duplicate thread it will just be locked. I felt that it would start a more constructive discussion as to why this should be implemented here, so I made it here.
12/04/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Balkoth
So you're agreeing that the bosses are tuned assuming people have enchants/gems/flask/food and then arguing that those are completely optional?
nope - not once did i state anything is optional if it is needed - i said things that are not needed are optional
12/05/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Mistabings
Or that they haven't read the reasons laid out in this thread before.


I'm sure there were many reasons that were read. The company I work for has a very good lean system with a suggestion system included. When we had a meeting with our president, someone asked "why are all my good ideas being ignored!?" He replied "we get many ideas and a lot are idiotic. Everyone thinks their idea is the best idea." He's right too. I've seen many good ideas implemented. Though I have seen some ideas here implemented in shady ways. Like the guy who suggested the totem pole idea for Shamans. He was told "no, that's not a good idea" then later, the exact same thing was implemented and called "Call of Elements."
12/05/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Mistabings
Sounds to me like he answered exactly what you asked and now you're trying to claim you asked something other than what you did, because the point you originally tried to make got shot down, which means you're more concerned about being right rather than having a discussion, the purpose of these forums. You're the one trying to save face here, not sure why you're flinging that accusation at him.


This is every discussion Greyhide and Asane have had on this forum, ever.
Yes, normal was cleared before LFR, Yes, I did it, and Yes, Heroic is clearable with no LFR gear, but funny thing, I guarantee you that nobody cleared a heroic raid this tier with nobody having done LFR.

So, are you saying that all the top guilds are unskilled and lack time, because I guarantee you, that guilds like Paragon, Blood legion and Vodka are all using LFR, especially the first month to fill in gear gaps.


Agreed, but its not like blue did not already discuss this exact point.

It should not happen for later tiers, if it does you have a legitimate complaint. It was unavoidable this tier unless blizzard was willing to inconvenience a lot larger group of non-heroic raids. The where not.
12/05/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Mistabings
This means that each LFR has to potential to take upwards of four hours with a bad group and bad luck with the queue, which is exactly what happened to me when I queued into the same group stuck on the last boss multiple times in a row, which I would have stayed for and helped kill if I could roll for the holy gear, but no, I was stuck as ret.


That is because you choose to do it such an awkward way.

Option A queue as holy, if that means you clear a fresh instance as holy, too bad.
Option B queue as dps, switch spec/gear for the last boss to holy. Their is not a single lfr boss where having 7 healers will prevent a kill as long as people stay alive. Indeed I routinely switch to holy for Garalon, not because I need gear but because if I run the pheromones I know its pretty much a 100% chance of a kill.
So I learned from this thread that the First Rule of Tautology Club is the First Rule of Tautology Club.
Agreed, but its not like blue did not already discuss this exact point.

It should not happen for later tiers, if it does you have a legitimate complaint. It was unavoidable this tier unless blizzard was willing to inconvenience a lot larger group of non-heroic raids. The where not.


"Should" not happen. So, we've traditionally had 19 ilvl jumps between tiers. 359 -> 378 -> 397 in Cataclysm.

If we jump 19 ilvls from 496 gear, we have 515 ilvl for the next tier. 13 ilvl less than that (for LFR) is 502. Uh-oh, that's the same ilvl as Heroic MSV gear. And here's a fun fact: the best trinket for spriests is Light of the Cosmos. The 502 Cosmos beats the 509 Essence of Terror. So if the next raid tier has a trinket as powerful as Cosmos, then if we wanted to maximize our DPS we'd need to try to get the LFR version.

And here's a really fun fact: even if we had the 509 Essence of Terror, and even if it was upgraded to 517...it's only then EQUAL to a 502 Cosmos trinket. Literally like 1-2 Intellect better.

And an upgraded trinket from the new LFR would be better (by several hundred DPS per upgrade).

That's not even looking at the fact that currently some of the BiS stuff is from MSV (like shields). A 502 LFR shield with a socket, for example, would be an upgrade, especially if the MSV shield wasn't valor upgraded.

And that's still not even considering the question of set bonuses.

Pardon me if I'm still worried.

P.S. This scenario gets even worse if the next raids are done like the first tier with a lower level first tier. Because then the 2.5 tier will have 509 LFR gear, equal to heroic HoF/ToES gear.

So you're agreeing that the bosses are tuned assuming people have enchants/gems/flask/food and then arguing that those are completely optional?
nope - not once did i state anything is optional if it is needed - i said things that are not needed are optional


Enchants/gems/flask/food, are they optional? Yes or no.

If you say yes, then by your own logic you're wrong because you could eventually kill the raid bosses by getting tons of gear to make up for lacking the enchants/gems/flask/food.

If you say no, then by your own logic you're wrong since you need those bonuses because the bosses are tuned assuming you'll have them.

Your "logic" is completely self-contradicting, incoherent, and nonsensical.
No he didn't. He just made a blanket statement without real justification. He's insinuating that people NEED to do it. I'm more inclined to believe that they just did it as gap fillers. What else is there to do? Just because I watch a TV show to fill in a time gap doesn't mean I have to watch TV in order to go to sleep later. He tends to do that or just say nothing at all when asked for proof. Ask him sometime and see for yourself. It's actually quite cute.


Now you're going beyond the scope of your question.

All you asked was whether he had any proof of the statement. He went and looked at every guild that's done it up to this point, and they have all done LFR.

What other proof are you looking for? What other proof is there to provide?

He answered your question. Now, maybe you didn't get the answer you were looking for because something was wrong with the question, but that isn't his fault. It's yours.
Agreed, but its not like blue did not already discuss this exact point.

It should not happen for later tiers, if it does you have a legitimate complaint. It was unavoidable this tier unless blizzard was willing to inconvenience a lot larger group of non-heroic raids. The where not.


It happened in dragon soul, I'm sure it will happen in later tiers, I fail to see where the inconvenience is, you work on a boss on normal or heroic. If you kill the boss you get better loot than LFR and get locked out of LFR, if you don't then you can still run LFR to get the gear to help you the next time you work on him. I suppose anyone who pushes progression on monday night might not like that system but I don't know of anyone who raids monday as anything other than a cleanup night.
We raid Sunday/Monday night. Currently 6/6H in MSV and 2/6H in HoF (3% wipe on H Wind Lord last Monday...).

Seems you could just check a box to pass on all loot in LFR when you queue or something, though, like you can check "group leader" or whatever.
12/05/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Babzidu
This is every discussion Greyhide and Asane have had on this forum, ever.


If you're referring to me asking for justification and getting vague or evasive answers then yes, you're 100% correct and I applaud your ability to spot detail.

Now you're going beyond the scope of your question.

All you asked was whether he had any proof of the statement. He went and looked at every guild that's done it up to this point, and they have all done LFR.

What other proof are you looking for? What other proof is there to provide?

He answered your question. Now, maybe you didn't get the answer you were looking for because something was wrong with the question, but that isn't his fault. It's yours.


Seriously, just stop. You're thinking way too hard into such a small matter. Sometimes a river is just a river.
12/05/2012 02:32 PMPosted by Mate
This means that each LFR has to potential to take upwards of four hours with a bad group and bad luck with the queue, which is exactly what happened to me when I queued into the same group stuck on the last boss multiple times in a row, which I would have stayed for and helped kill if I could roll for the holy gear, but no, I was stuck as ret.


That is because you choose to do it such an awkward way.

Option A queue as holy, if that means you clear a fresh instance as holy, too bad.
Option B queue as dps, switch spec/gear for the last boss to holy. Their is not a single lfr boss where having 7 healers will prevent a kill as long as people stay alive. Indeed I routinely switch to holy for Garalon, not because I need gear but because if I run the pheromones I know its pretty much a 100% chance of a kill.


I remember reading a blue post that said you get gear based on the spec you queue as, not the spec you kill as, and the reason I don't queue the whole thing as holy is because then I am missing out on the ret gear I need from the first two bosses, while needing none of the potential holy gear.

12/05/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Greyhide
This is every discussion Greyhide and Asane have had on this forum, ever.


If you're referring to me asking for justification and getting vague or evasive answers then yes, you're 100% correct and I applaud your ability to spot detail.

Now you're going beyond the scope of your question.

All you asked was whether he had any proof of the statement. He went and looked at every guild that's done it up to this point, and they have all done LFR.

What other proof are you looking for? What other proof is there to provide?

He answered your question. Now, maybe you didn't get the answer you were looking for because something was wrong with the question, but that isn't his fault. It's yours.


Seriously, just stop. You're thinking way too hard into such a small matter. Sometimes a river is just a river.



Who's being evasive here? You got a direct and clear answer that proved you wrong. He's not thinking hard at all, in fact it's a very simple concept actually, you've realize you're wrong and instead of being mature and admitting it you're attempting to still claim you're right and trying to shut the other person up because you have no new arguments to bring to the table as evidence that you're right.
12/05/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Mistabings
Who's being evasive here? You got a direct and clear answer that proved you wrong. He's not thinking hard at all, in fact it's a very simple concept actually, you've realize you're wrong and instead of being mature and admitting it you're attempting to still claim you're right and trying to shut the other person up because you have no new arguments to bring to the table as evidence that you're right.


lmfao! Proved me wrong? There was nothing I said to even be proven wrong. hahaha! Oh man. Seriously... thank you. I had a long day at work and needed a laugh.
12/04/2012 02:10 AMPosted by Zaxan
the majority of both sides of the competition would rather have it removed
they can remove it themselves by just stop running LFR if they dont want to run it - there, now no one runs LFR while competing with each other anymore because they DONT want to...brilliant, eh?

and those that DO want to compete with each other while running LFR along with normal/heroic raids STILL can

win/win...

honestly, do your kind hire ppl to slap you in real life everytime you start to do things you dont want to (that do NOT need to be done) in order to keep you from doing them?

i have never met anyone in real life yet, (i am 40 years old) that has such lack of self-control that they actually do things they DONT want to do (that do NOT need to be done)...so i really dont know what its like or have any idea how they stop themselves...

i keep imagining someone that has to tie their arms to their torso because their arms would just flail around on their own if they are not tied to their torso...and i giggle insanely everytime i picture it...


this struck me as a fairly selfish point of view.

a need is something that is required to complete a want. i dont *need* to eat, drink, or breathe, unless i *want* to stay alive.

lfr gear is not needed to kill raid bosses, nor are dailies, valor, heroic dungeons, flasks, gems, enchants, possibly even leveling to a certain point. however, if i do not have any of those things i will *need* 9 other people that are willing to carry my sorry !@# through the raid and for every one of those things i am lacking those other 9 people will *need* more skill or gear to take up my slack.

any consistent raid group needs 2 things: people that will show up... and for those people to try their best to kill the boss. each one of those people need enough skill and equipment to perform their task to the level required for the kill. for each one of those people that are lacking, that burden shifts to someone else.

if you really want to argue what is needed vs wanted, you could speculate that say 5 people *need* current heroic raid gear to kill normal stone guard, assuming the other 5 people are naked and totally brain dead. point is if enough people in said raid group do not take advantage of every opportunity to better themselves and their character, there would be a point where lfr gear would become a *need*.

i share the feelings of most people in here. i do not want to do dailies, they are boring. i do not want to run 5 man heroics, they are boring. i do not want to run lfr every week, it gives me a headache and requires me to keep alcohol on hand. i want to raid and enjoy overcoming available challenges with my friends and i do these things anyway because i do not want to be a burden to my friends.
12/05/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Anivar
a need is something that is required to complete a want.
if you don't want to do what it takes to get what you want, that is your problem, not the problem of players who want to do what it takes to get it, and those players should not be told they can no longer do what it takes to get it just because you dont want to do what it takes

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