Highly Rated Post: Competitive Gaming

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I understand the things you're saying, and I agree with quite a lot of it, but if we were to have kept that same design, it would've probably drawn more flack than praise. No matter how good something is, people will complain about it after a period of time. The subscription losses can be a product of bad changes implemented, and it could also be those who sit behind their rose-tinted glasses bickering and nitpicking, or a mixture of the two. Building change off of past successes makes people say "well they're just doing the same thing from previous xpac so i'm not gonna spend $40 buying the new xpac for the same stuff" and things of that sort. Innovations must be made, and Blizzard sticks their neck out a lot for us despite what we may think sometimes. We all seem to "know what's best for us", but I don't think many people understand or appreciate the amount of work and time it takes. Many scoff it off, and regardless of what opinions people have of the company and what they do(n't) get, some respect is due instead of so much hate; temper tantrums never get much results except out of weak-willed parents.

I'll go on record to say that many things in Cataclysm fell flat, but ultimately I think most of the sub losses are people that have played the game so long that there's nothing left to dazzle them with, so why continue playing? I'm like you, I've been out of the game since about July of 2012. I fell out of love with the monotony of both the PvE and the PvP; raid leaders and PvPers too picky about different things left a bad taste in my mouth, among other things. I'm only back on a 10 day trial for Mists just to see if I may want to come back because I did enjoy playing.

You can release new content without drastically adjusting game mechanics. If blizzard went back to Wrath design philosophy and then added things like new bosses/BGs with actually interesting and creative designs I'm sure people wouldn't quit out of boredom. Let's look at some other games. Starcraft: This game has kept the same basic mechanics forever. You make units and avoid supply block then kill your opponent with sick micro. You can add to this: adding new story line, custom games - whether released by blizzard or created in map editor by other players etc. What should not be done is things like taking the supply mechanic away because this would ruing the game.

Wrath had some of the best mechanics we ever saw and we could easily revert to this basic design and keep moving forward in other areas of the game to keep things new. Even things like map rotations to keep the playing field feeling fresh could be done. I don't think that changing something that is good and defines a game should be a goal. Impliment new things that add new dynamics to the game without ruining old ones. Add cosmetic changes that allow players to further customize. Don't try to force feed a bad design philosophy when you had one that worked so well. You can try to justify it by saying that it is just the game progressing and evolving, but we shouldn't be progressing towards something that is so obviously worse.
1st page plz :D
1st page plz bump
Updated some points to fit the newer patch notes.
bump+ plz buy this guy some time... I want my arena partner back -.- I offered to buy but my money isn't good enough.
I upvoted the first post before realizing it was a necro.
Lot of the things he has in there can be applied to how the game is now sadly.

Oh well.
12/19/2014 09:45 PMPosted by Galere
I upvoted the first post before realizing it was a necro.
Lot of the things he has in there can be applied to how the game is now sadly.

Oh well.

Very sad indeed ):
finally, a necro worth reading
I like your post OP.

As someone who has 'dabbled' in both PVE and PVP more or less for the past 8 1/2 years, a couple of points.

1. Blizzard's enthusiasm for Arena more or less died at the end of The Burning Crusade. It was the hot new thing, e-sports were so much their focus that they even made a 5-man boss encounter with Arena-like mechanics.

I won't get into the almost bi-weekly nerfs and hot fixes to bring everyone in line. Suffice to say, the game had many good and bad changes in that time.

The best season? S3

2. As far as "Skill" goes, the high point there was around late S6 or S7. Many classes including Arms Warriors were at their best in terms of toolkit, skill floor and skill cap. I don't feel that anyone was OP. By S7 Ret Paladins and DKs were brought down to earth. For the most part if you lost, it was because you got outplayed.

3. The first season of each expansion seems to have a lot of broken classes or specs. Either broken in that they are ineffective, or broken in that they are too good. Pretty much S1, S5, S9.. you get the idea.

The last season of each expansion has PVE gear that is just too damn good. Whether that is legendary weapons, some uber elite mongo trinket, or some other factor that fills the ladders with people who have insane throughput compared to a strictly PVP geared player.

4. Something always seems to be broken that permits some players to game the system for rating, titles, gear or something. Whether that is selling an invite to your team that insta-grants the person rating, some bug that causes losses to never lower your MMR or something else (something every season).

5. The "community" is garbage. Full of cheaters, win traders, and people who have never treated it like an "e-sport". Just another thing to abuse for personal gain.

If you want people to take e-sports seriously it has to have some degree of respect from the participants. Instead every TR is full of cheating related drama. We have a player organized tournament, and it gets DDoS'd. People selling Gladiator. The ever present win trading.

6. The game is very old now and has had the same repetitive problems for too long. Most of the very best players who ever participated in Arena are gone. Either no longer gaming or have moved on to a game with actual potential to make a living from their skill as gamers.
Excellent post! Underlines issues that are, sadly, still prevalent in wow.

I admit I only read the three opening posts, but this is fantastic. You've hit the nail on the head. Of course, the slow and steady decline of the PvP participation in this game is no secret, and we've been railing against class homogenization, yelling for free PvP gear, and pleading desperately for tournament PvP realms (like AT.com) for a looooong time now. But sometimes it's nice to remind the community (and even possibly the developers) what's wrong and how to fix it.

Nothing new here, but very well worded and extremely relevant to today's PvP climate. Thanks OP.

Edit: Oh wow, necro city. Sad how relevant this still is. I was thinking when I was read the OP "We've been saying this exactly same stuff for YEARS, this isn't new, but it's still relevant.". Heh.
12/21/2014 04:34 AMPosted by Tahonta

If you want people to take e-sports seriously it has to have some degree of respect from the participants. Instead every TR is full of cheating related drama. We have a player organized tournament, and it gets DDoS'd. People selling Gladiator. The ever present win trading.

I do remember that tournament last year that was started and I watched some of it and saw how the other team was contantly disconnected from the arena. The community for one needs to change its negative mentality and/or those who abuse/play unfair need to be dealt with.

They are in fact providing more and more updates/hotfixes this season quicker than I have ever seen and thats a plus. They are punishing those who play unfair thats a plus.
Updated some points to fit the current game a bit better.
12/19/2014 10:40 PMPosted by Rageforce
Homogenization has ruined the PvP experience. Now all classes have too much of everything.
Each spec should only have ONE defensive CD ideally on a 1.5 or 2 min timer, one major CC, one or two escape/gap closing tools and one major offensive CD. Throw in a 3 or 4 button damage rotation and a utility spell or two and that's absolutely all they need.

I'm not sure that it's really this simple. It's not so much that every class has too much, it's more that each class has a lot of the SAME. Simply pruning so that each class just has the same amount of each thing doesn't really make them different. You have to aim for each class to fit a niche. It's far better if one class has multiple strong CC abilities but lacks mobility and another class has high sustained damage but little burst and another class has both damage and healing but cannot do either one for very long due to low efficiency.

We can once again look at Wrath to see excellent examples of this.

Disc priest: could do damage and healing but ran out of mana faster than any other healer. Had offensive and defensive double dispel but had very little mobility.

Holy pally: By far most efficient single target healing but almost no spread healing. Had defensive dispel but was weak when CC'd due to low healing through hots/buffs.

Resto shaman: Had the highest lineup of support abilities through totems but had one of the lower healing outputs. Did not have dispel but had several ways of aggressively avoiding CCs through totems and 6 second shock cooldown.

Resto druid: almost all healing was through hots. This meant that they could effectively heal someone while casting CCs but were susceptible to quick switches. Had no dispel but could use forms to avoid many types of CC.

Lock: Had effectively infinite damage because of the mana battery abilities like life tap. The only mobility tool they had was portal.

Rogue: Very frail but had the highest CC of any melee. High mobility but low damage relative to others. Absolutely no self healing but had several escape mechanisms.

Warrior: Lacked any kind of reliable CC but could dish out unhealable damage if kept mobile.

Mage: Probably the class with the most control in forms of sheeps/novas/deepfreze/counterspell etc. had no self healing. Had good damage output but had to stand still to do it.

Obviously I haven't covered everything because the post would become absurdly long if I did, but as you can see every class has something that they are the best at and something that they are horrible at. It's not about how many tools each class has, it's about how those tools make them different from others. We've seen a lot of these niches destroyed by means of all healers getting dispel, most classes getting self healing (why do rogues have this?), and when you think about it, there's like 5 classes that now work off of a pseudo combo-point system. That is far from the end of the list of homogenization but you can see where this is going.
Too bad blizzard doesn't give a !@#$ about pvp.
12/21/2014 02:48 AMPosted by Renwlzwanabe
would somebody DO something for once? we ALL know they don't look at these forums why dont we all spam this @ holinka or somebody idk. This post is great and all but i feel like nobody will see it ever. What can we do?

Just get the thread so big that it can't be ignored. There are occasionally blue posts that come on here. If we had a 700 page thread I think it'd get some attention. Granted that's hard to get, but one can dream.

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