Fix this mess you call a GUARDIAN!

Druid
Bears are getting hit way toooooooooo hard. a really bad self heal for that amount of rage is just hopeless. At 85 with an item level of 397 I was able to solo Onyxia without losing any more than 10% health. Over all I wasn't being hit hard at all by anything. After that patch where talents got changed I was being KING HIT and was barely able to solo Ony. now at 90 I still get hit hard with an item level of 468. Trolls will troll but idc. I've seen the horrible things bears have become.
12/06/2012 01:47 AMPosted by Renegade
was barely able to solo Ony

Yet you still solo'd her.

Question is, what are you doing wrong that causes you to think you're getting hit hard, yet I don't feel as though I get hit hard and I'm in crappier gear than you are?

LFR? Do you know the fight mechanics? Do the healers have a brain? Are you using the appropriate active mitigation skill at the appropriate time? Are you using CDs? Are you utilizing your talents and cooldowns properly?

Bears take less damage per hit than pretty much every tank because our armor is ridiculous. It's not that we're squishy. Spikey, yes. Squishy, no. Plenty of bears are tanking heroic content without issues. This "mess" is not with the class.
yes I do... I know how to play this class and spec. I've done all the research available to me. I have spoken to many of bears about this and they all agree with me. They have noticed a big change. Most of these druids are doing HM in HoF.... If druids at these levels of raiding are noticing a big change with their damage intake then this is a problem.
So you read the blog by the person you kinda rudely replied to? Cause there is likely no better place to be doing Guardian research then TheIncBear.com. Guardians are very good this tier. Reesi is correct. If you are dropping like a rock all the time you are either:
1. Using the wrong AM for the wrong situation
2. Your healers are not doing their job
3. You are missing something with the encounter.
My post was not meant as an attack, though I should have known better of someone preparing for trolls. Many players can have extensive knowledge of their class and its mechanics, I am not questioning that. However, many players with this knowledge can also be poor at execution for various reasons.

Continuing on, using hearsay as evidence to your claim that guardians are a mess and take too much damage does absolutely nothing for you or anyone else reading this thread. You are only going "hey, do you take a lot of damage? I do! You too? Omg, fix bears". What kind of damage are you taking under what circumstances? What have you done, or not done, to mitigate this damage? what have healers been doing? Was a cooldown used, or missed?

How much damage are other tanks taking, and how smooth is their damage intake? They may be taking more damage overall, but the amount is steady over time in comparison to a Guardians proclivity for spike damage, but less damage overall. Quite a few healers can't deal with spikey damage fluxes.

My point is, nothing really needs to be changed about guardians. (aside from Rage being terrible as an AM resource, which is shared with warriors) Player adaptation is required. You can tell me, and all the world, that you know exactly what you're doing, but the fact that you are yelling and screaming about it on the forums indicates to us that you don't. There is something else at play here that is not directly related to the class as a whole, and until you calm down and critically think about it - go through logs, talk with healers, change how you do things, etc., you will likely continue to feel as though you take too much damage.
The old Savage Defense was incredibly overpowered against things you outgeared - however it was incredibly bad for current content.

The new method means you actually have to work beyond rolling your face on your keyboard. Onyxia is not threatening. I was able to solo her just fine on Beta, and that was without T&C.
Maybe if you linked us a WoL's post we can inform you of what you're doing wrong?
You know, this guy is posting on a "troll" warrior. His post seems highly illogical as I was soloing Ony midway through Cata, so there's literally NO way you can screw up that badly on Ony unless you purposely run into deep breathes or the whelp cave or something else incredibly dumb.
12/06/2012 02:49 AMPosted by Renegade
yes I do... I know how to play this class and spec. I've done all the research available to me. I have spoken to many of bears about this and they all agree with me. They have noticed a big change. Most of these druids are doing HM in HoF.... If druids at these levels of raiding are noticing a big change with their damage intake then this is a problem.


Problem is those bears aren't Reesi.
(Posted on the wrong char)

If I may use this post to springboard, I feel a lot squisher as a bear than I do on either of my other tanks (paladin, warrior). I don't raid, and I don't really have a problem in dungeons (or at least my healers have never complained) but when soloing for dailies, I feel much much weaker as a bear.

For example, on my paladin, I regularly gather up 7+ mobs and just AOE them down with no issues. I don't even have to touch a cooldown. On my bear, with five or more, I'm blowing every cooldown I have just to stay above half health.

Granted, my pally and warrior are only 88 and 87 respectively. Is this something that will lessen as I level? It was a problem I had consistently while levelling my druid to 90, and I'm not feeling it at all on my other tanks.

Is there something I'm doing terribly wrong? There must be if you guys are saying that bears are in a good place right now. Obviously since it's just dailies I don't have WOL or anything, but I use Mangle, FFF, Swipe and Thrash on CD and try to keep SD rolling. Our heal just feels terribly weak, and before a pack is half dead I'm at half health and popping CDs.
I don't know how my post got deleted. But I did find OP's druid.
(I'm sorry if it was removed if I had violated some forum rule but I'm still gonna comment on his Druid.)

It's terribly gemmed, neither has hit or expertise cap, wrong meta gem, lacked enchants and iirc as an ex-bear he didn't need the glyph of barkskin.
His stat and priority is similar to that of cata bears back in the day.
The problem mainly lies with him first rather than what is the current state bear is at.
12/07/2012 02:12 AMPosted by Snuzzle
For example, on my paladin, I regularly gather up 7+ mobs and just AOE them down with no issues. I don't even have to touch a cooldown. On my bear, with five or more, I'm blowing every cooldown I have just to stay above half health.
Gear issue.

Also, don't reforge into Dodge if all you're doing is 5mans and dailies.

12/07/2012 02:12 AMPosted by Snuzzle
Granted, my pally and warrior are only 88 and 87 respectively. Is this something that will lessen as I level?
Yes. Stats decrease in effectiveness quite dramatically from 85-90.

12/07/2012 02:12 AMPosted by Snuzzle
Is there something I'm doing terribly wrong? There must be if you guys are saying that bears are in a good place right now. Obviously since it's just dailies I don't have WOL or anything, but I use Mangle, FFF, Swipe and Thrash on CD and try to keep SD rolling. Our heal just feels terribly weak, and before a pack is half dead I'm at half health and popping CDs.
You don't have enough gear to be AoE pulling on dailies. Kill 2-3 mobs at a time at most.
I am sorry but you must be doing something wrong. I would suggest getting rid of Dodge in favor of Crit.

I find it easier to solo Ony now at 90 because HotW allows me to get out of the air phase rapidly.

I also have had no issue pulling large groups of mobs and aoe'ing them down and have been doing so since I hit 90 for my dailies.
12/07/2012 07:44 AMPosted by Arielle
Also, don't reforge into Dodge if all you're doing is 5mans and dailies.

Noted. Exp/hit to cap then?

Yes. Stats decrease in effectiveness quite dramatically from 85-90.

Of course, but I couldn't even do the same massive pulls at 85 on my druid that my pally and warrior can. Oh well.

You don't have enough gear to be AoE pulling on dailies. Kill 2-3 mobs at a time at most.

Er... uh. What? They're dailies and I'm a tank. If I can only handle 2 mobs, I might as well go DPS, a DPS can handle two mobs at once...

12/07/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Tyrnyx
I am sorry but you must be doing something wrong. I would suggest getting rid of Dodge in favor of Crit.

Yes, I am trying to figure out what! :P
12/06/2012 01:47 AMPosted by Renegade
Bears are getting hit way toooooooooo hard. a really bad self heal for that amount of rage is just hopeless. At 85 with an item level of 397 I was able to solo Onyxia without losing any more than 10% health. Over all I wasn't being hit hard at all by anything. After that patch where talents got changed I was being KING HIT and was barely able to solo Ony. now at 90 I still get hit hard with an item level of 468. Trolls will troll but idc. I've seen the horrible things bears have become.


Barely able to solo Ony? Are you crazy? The first day I did it I had no clue and pulled her (I was seeing if the battle pet spawned in the raid). It took me 20 minutes but I never once came close to dieing. Now I solo her is 7-8 minutes. Air phase takes a while but swipe and thrash reach her if you are under her. Are you doing your rotation right? I've been soloing her since level 90. I can solo everything for the new pets as well, except the first boss of BwL but that is what boyfriends are for.

Tier wise I have been fine. I off tank feng and I am able to tank the 1st and 3rd bosses of 10m MSV just fine and no issues with any LFR fights.
12/07/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Snuzzle
Er... uh. What? They're dailies and I'm a tank. If I can only handle 2 mobs, I might as well go DPS, a DPS can handle two mobs at once...

I don't think I explained it very well. 2-3 (maybe 4) is the most you can have at any one time (in your gear) without being in any serious danger.

That means keep pulling additional mobs as each one dies.
I hear classes are balanced around old, outdated content.

Also, druids got better at soloing since the panda changes, people even started soloing heroic lichking... which used to be impossible.
12/07/2012 08:33 PMPosted by Dreyen
Also, druids got better at soloing since the panda changes, people even started soloing heroic lichking... which used to be impossible.

Well, initially 5.0 was a nerf for bosses doing mostly physical damage (e.g. thorim, razuvious), but after the thick hide/melee swing rage hotfix, it was a buff/about even for physical bosses and a massive buff for magic damage.

LK heroic was more about the 30% healing buff being absolutely stupid with heals that scale with damage taken.

5.0 was also definitely a nerf for onyxia, considering the main way we got through that quickly was going cat while she flew away, burning off almost the entirety of p2 in the first 20 seconds (with CDs+ consumables, it was possible to burn the entirety of p2 during that). At 85, we kind of lost that. In no way did it make it hard to survive, though... and if you're having trouble surviving ony at 90, considering boomkin can easily outheal the damage, you need to mash FR harder.

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