Talents and Opinions: The good and the bad.

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12/05/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Rfeann
Are underused talents underused because they're not powerful enough, period? Or more because they're not as powerful as the other options in that tier?

I think it's safe to say that nightstalker falls into the first one... though subterfuge may need a little redesign to be more appealing in pve for non subtley rogues.
Another important point is that a talent can be useful outside max-level PvE/PvP and still be fine (of the 2,741,089 rogues on US and EU servers, 2,611,057 of them - over 95% - are below level 90). Nightstalker, for example, is a pretty obvious leveling talent with little other viability. Dirty Tricks is also very solo-centric.

That said, Shuriken Toss scares the hell out of me. I realize the role it's trying to fill in PvP, but I wish they'd fix that issue without compromising our role as a melee DPS class. This might seem tongue-in-cheek since I'm on my way out anyway, but the last thing I want to see rogues become is a ranged-viable class.

I mean, there are a lot of those I could be playing if I didn't want to play as melee...

I actually wouldn't mind if rogues got a dedicated ranged spec for whatever reason, even though it'd be even odds between it playing like a petless hunter or an assassin version of a shadow priest, but applying ranged capabilities to melee specs and trying to balance the results is... really icky... at least to me.
12/05/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Vernet
I think it's safe to say that nightstalker falls into the first one... though subterfuge may need a little redesign to be more appealing in pve for non subtley rogues.

Nightstalker is another one of those talents I wish I had the excuse to take while raiding. When I'm questing, it feels like it's basically the only talent that makes sense to bother taking, and when I'm raiding, I feel like I'm being stupid if I'm using anything other than Shadow Focus.

Subterfuge I don't even bother with because it too often seems to cause stealth to break at unexpected (and unintended) times. I might consider it more seriously if it wasn't buggy.

What's the utilization of the tier in PvP?
12/05/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Rfeann
What's the utilization of the tier in PvP?

According to Guildox, it's shadow focus all the way down the line. Free openers must be pretty good.
12/05/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Rfeann
I'm unsure whether we really need an energy-increasing talent tier -- I worry as it is that within a couple of raid tiers we're gonna have energy shooting out our energy holes, particularly for Combat -- but the idea feels clean. And I like the fact that 1) it wouldn't add any new cooldowns and 2) it would be a proc whose effects we could "watch" occur, which is satisfying.

I agree about the stupid amount of energy regen in DS and had actually thought of an idea for an ability I thought would have been interesting in DS (though considerably less with this tiers energy regen). The numbers may need tweaking but i'll put them in so you get the gist of it:

70 Energy

You reach back with both hands for a massive attack dealing 600% weapon damage. This attack leaves your character winded, reducing energy generation by 50% for 5 seconds.

Basically a heavy energy dump which does the damage of 3 attacks but costs slightly more energy than 3 attacks. It would need to be balanced so its only a DPS gain during periods where energy capping is unavoidable. Would likely need some adjustments to be PvP viable.
12/05/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Ninjablaze

Interesting. I wouldn't mind something like this, but I think it would be nicer to see it have more uses, and it is true that it would only be used a lot in late tiers. Maybe if it had a secondary effect, like reducing the damage the enemy does to the rogue? We'll say they are intimidated or dazed or something. Could reduce the damage they do to any target but then raid bosses would have to ignore it which would make me sad because I need more ways to reduce boss damage.

Also, energy capping will only be an issue when AR is up, since (I'd think) haste would lose too much of its value if you could potentially energy cap at any given point in the rotation. Also the CD reduction during AR with the glyph would help mitigate that, plus with any luck our last tier won't have a set bonus that makes all our abilities mad cheep.
Ghostcrawler recently said that talents will be readdressed in 5.2 (I will link the quote at the end for completeness), so I was thinking now might be a good time to get a discussion going on talents, specfically what people like, don't like, and want to change. If you're the type of person who likes answering specific questions, here ya go:

What is/are your favorite talent/s?
What talents would you like to see slight changes on?
What talents do you think should be removed?
Any ideas on totally new talents or changes?
Same questions go with tiers.

Love, Haileaus

These are my thoughts in this post I made.

Whoh! Can't wait to read them, unfortunately I have an essay to write and inexplicably I have the willpower to work on it now. But yeah would be cool to get some discussion over here about them rather than bumping another talent thread. Definitely good discussion so far, though I wish more people would participate. Still a new thread though so...*shrug*.
Subterfuge I don't even bother with because it too often seems to cause stealth to break at unexpected (and unintended) times. I might consider it more seriously if it wasn't buggy.

What's the utilization of the tier in PvP?

I think I must be elune's chosen, because it actually doesn't bug for me at all!

Pvp wise the main things that subterfuge offer: 4 seconds of not being focused by everyone nearby after opening on a target, shadowmeld+stealth=true second vanish with stealth not breaking for 4 seconds(you can BoS to get away while they still can't see you). Stun+garrote vs mages so they can't blink, invisible killing spree opener on wounded targets causing much confusion and grieving, a chance to opening on a guy AoEing, a chance to get away from a guy who hit you with an aoe and restealth.

It's a good talent but a lot of people seen to be crawling with spiders, it sort of messes up your stealth bar since it will actually stay there and it kinda makes the cooldown on stealth more noticeable in fleeing situations, kinda forced myself to get the stealth glyph for it.
AoE Tier: Blade Flurry, Poison Vial, FoK+CT enhancer.

Blade Flurry is cleave, Poison Vial is burst/utility FoK+CT is sustained.

BF would still probably be better for combat but sub and assassination would at least have access to it so you wouldn't feel required to respec for cleave fights.

12/05/2012 01:03 PMPosted by Rfeann
Maybe if extra-CP proccing were removed from the equation, it'd be a more intriguing debate to have from fight to fight. But as many feared it would, the fight designs so far in Mists don't appear to have made ST a viable option over Anticipation, and that makes me sad.

I don't think its possible to make fights where ST is viable, if ST is strong enough to be viable why are bringing a rogue?

On energy regen tier I don't think its that interesting of a tier because it doesn't really add anything to how rogue rotations function, alright I have a bit more energy now what does that really offer me in terms of gameplay choices? I am still going to build cps and use finishers at 5 cps, the finishers I'm going to use remain static. Energy regen doesn't change what abilities I use, maybe cheap muts during execute which is kinda interesting but for combat and sub I'm still using the exact same abilities.
12/05/2012 03:40 PMPosted by Fierydemise
AoE Tier: Blade Flurry, Poison Vial, FoK+CT enhancer.

Dear lord, FiDem. You saw what happened to the Sub community when Prep and Step became talent options. I can only imagine the mushroom cloud that would erupt from the Combat community if there were any scenario in which Blade Flurry could conceivably not be on their action bar at all.

But to follow up on a couple of bits, because I find the idea of an AoE tier appealing:

1) What tier is this replacing? What happens to those talents?

2) What the heck is Poison Vial? Did I miss an earlier discussion?

3) How do you create an "enhanced" FoK+CT rotation that doesn't make Assassination's existing AoE ridiculous?
I see a lot of the talents as being spells that you sort of have to pick because quite honestly you need it. Things like versatility is something we've needed for a while yet apparently it deserves a spot on the last tier( i know that nobody even picks it, i'm just saying it'd be great if we just automatically had it). Equally, anticipation is a nice safety net to catch those extra CP's if perhaps you lagged and went CP crazy. Maybe i'm not explaining this in the way that i feel. What i'm really trying to say is we don't really have any talents where you can say to yourself, well damn when i use this !@#$s gonna pop off. I see that in a lot of other classes and i am quite jealous.
Anywho it's probably time for me to say something constructive. I really like the idea of a poison vial because i'm all for having mor poisons to choose from. In addition to poisons i was thinking a possible anesthetic like chloroform vial that acts like the old chains of ice but in reverse.

Throw a vial of chloroform at your target and over a short period their movement speed is reduced by 10%,30%,70%,90% and ends. Of course this vial would need a cd since it'd be way too OP if it was spam-able.

I don't know, just a thought since mobility lacks and this would be a sweet gap closer while at the same time also feel very rogue like. Sort of like when they threw chloroform at king kongs face and he took a nap. That was my inspiration if anyone was curious.
I think talking a sub community or a combat community doesn't make sense, there is a pve rogue community, we may prefer certain specs but when the chips are down we all know the spec we should be playing.

The outrage with step and prep on the same tier has more to do with the pvp implications of that change more then anything about spec identity. To the extent that spec identity played a role the issue was more with the outright schizophrenia of sub so prep and step were what defined sub. BF doesn't define combat, there are a number of places you can go with the "aboutness" of combat but I don't think blade flurry is a huge part of any of them. Finally from the thematic view it still holds, combat with high physical damage and no bleed requirement would be the best positioned to use blade flurry but it wouldn't be the case as it is now where combat just blows everyone out of the water.

[Broad Game Design Theory Rant]
Part of the long term goals for rogue specs in particular but really all classes with multiple specs per role (warriors, dks, all pures) is making the specs less niche heavy. As I said above we all know what spec we need to be when the chips are down part of that comes from the broader issue of classes with multiple roles per spec tend to have very specific niches. Niches are good but multi-spec per role classes arguable swap specs more from fight to fight then just about any other players in the game. Making other specs have access to these niches if not to the same degree as the niche primary spec would be a huge QoL change for us.
[/Broad Game Design Theory Rant]

With that out of the way to answer your questions
1) I'm not totally sure where this tier goes, part of me would like to see the rogue tiers, outside of the cheat death one scrapped completely and redone. Some of the talents are good but they are just too scrambled to make sense. Obviously that isn't feasible but perhaps you could baseline Deadly Throw (without the interrupt) and CR again and put nerve strike, dirty tricks and prey on the weak into one tier as the incap tier. Then put the aoe tier there, actually this gives me an idea for how to reshuffle the talent trees which I need to flesh out a bit more but I"ll post later.

2) Poison Vial is the idea thats been floating around since the rogue in the ToC 5 mans used it. Something like
Throw a Poison Vial on the ground doing X damage and Y damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Applies additional effects based on utility poison, 45 second CD.
Basically burst AoE on a reasonable CD, a good choice for something like cleaning up cosmic sparks on elegon or bloods on heroic madness.

3) I think the best option would be to allow FoK and CT to better link into existing spec mechanics, perhaps let FoK advance BG although at a slower rate. Let CT proc VW at a somewhat reduced rate, not totally sure what to do with sub. Basically for something like windlord we can switch to a true AoE rotation that actually uses our spec mechanics not the generic FoK spam we have now.
Personally, not to be too persnickety about this, but I think our discussion would be better off if we focus more on very specific talents or talent tiers we like (and why), or that we don't like (and why).

My concern is that, if we start tossing out broad, wide-ranging posts on how we'd redesign entire swaths of talents or create a whole bunch of new ones, we'll start to lose sight of what we really should be talking about here: What it is about our current talent system we think should be improved. The answer to that can't be "everything" or "it needs all of these great talents I thought of instead." I'm not saying anyone's ideas are bad -- I very much DON'T feel that way -- just that it's not something that'll lead to a very productive discussion, I don't think.
12/05/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Fierydemise
The outrage with step and prep on the same tier has more to do with the pvp implications of that change more then anything about spec identity.

True, but I do think there was a lot of spec identity lost. I mean I go SS for every fight I play sub on even though it might not be a dps increase (it might too, mind you, but definitely depends on fight). Reason? I don't like playing sub without it and the spec feels weird when I'm not using it.

Similarly I'd argue BF is very much part of combat's identity, especially since so many people spec combat specifically because of BF. Still, I think it makes sense to make cleaves more even between specs.

12/05/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Fierydemise
Poison Vial

I've always liked the idea of this. Would be really cool to have it apply all of our poisons. For some it might need to have them apply the concentrated form we see in Shiv (Leeching, maybe Paralytic...).
Absolutely right Rfeann, sorry for my sweeping comments.
To be more specfic i was thinking of the rogue mobility tier - We got shadowstep, burst of speed and prep. I was proposing make prep baseline and put in the chloroform bottle throw. I know it's another ranged hit and while we don't need to be more ranged i think it might have great pvp viability. Clearly it's purpose in pve doesn't have much place an perhaps it can have an off ability that applies more to pve situations. But if blizz decides that ST is going to be what you gotta use when you're getting kited with no options then maybe we should have something to close the gap at the same time.

Now that i think of it it is a bit similar to just having crip be applied on a ST, however crip is only 50%. The idea of having something rogue-like and gap closing in that tier just sounds fitting. We have step which is classic, BoS which has potential, and perhaps something that's in the middle but get's us closer to where we need to be with overlapping onto the others and becoming unoriginal/ a mirror of another talent.
Can I link my ideas in here too?


lol forgot I already did this x3

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