Talents and Opinions: The good and the bad.

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12/05/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Trixxs
Hey whats up Haileaus


12/05/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Trixxs
and when you use it, you return to full energy with it.

I do wish we had something like Thistle Tea is at level 60.

Cheat Death:

All the damage you take below 15% health will be all be stacked into one buff, as soon as the last attack hits you, instead of killing you it will heal up back up to how much the buff stacked.

Very cool change!


Each stack gives you a 5% damage increase to your next finisher

Would kinda defeat the original purpose of the ability, being giving a safty net...interesting thought though.

12/05/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Trixxs
If you get attacked or taken out of stealth when you use shadow walk you get a 15% damage increase and a 50% movement speed increase for 5 sec.

And immunity to snares. I could see this being useless otherwise, and think it should be a sort of punishment for taking a rogue out of stealth rather than a compensation to the rogue.

12/05/2012 04:41 PMPosted by Rfeann
Personally, not to be too persnickety about this, but I think our discussion would be better off if we focus more on very specific talents or talent tiers we like (and why), or that we don't like (and why).

Very much agree.
12/05/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Jackoblades
To be more specfic i was thinking of the rogue mobility tier - We got shadowstep, burst of speed and prep. I was proposing make prep baseline and put in the chloroform bottle throw.

I like the idea, but then if it were to address our mobility issues it would have to be better than SS/BoS, which is a no-no. Still think that would be a better fit than Prep for our mobility tier. Fact is, I don't see prep as being all that mobility-oriented in the first place. It's just kinda...an ability that is maybe close to SS in PvP but's only similarity is having been taken from Subtlety.
Good move, Hail.

At a glance:

I'd scrap Versatility, Combat Readiness, Deadly throw, and maybe the poison talents. They'd either be baselined(with adjustments) or simply deleted.

Versatility- Generally the difference between redirecting and starting fresh CP's on a new target is small; when it really is a do or die moment, we have redirect available- once a minute is often enough.

Combat Readiness- I've always felt this had little purpose, another long cooldown to offset rogue fragility(and with the stacking mechanism, doing a poor job of it) imo, this should be combined with evasion for a damage reduction effect for the non dodged attacks(Die By the Sword, Deterrence)

Deadly throw- It's only any good at 5 combo points. Shuriken does more damage(most of the time) and gets the basic effect(ranged poisons/slow) up easier. Once you actually get to your target, then you can unload a more impactful KS, Evis, or Envenom.

Poison talents- I just feel that the poisons system was screwed up in general coming into MOP. That with DB being on the pvp sets and costing the 70% snare if you run numbing/leeching/paralytic... Not cool.

I'd redesign:
Tiers 30/45/90.

Make a tier of elusiveness, nerve strike, and cheat death for tier 30 maybe.
Put prep on a cooldown-esque tier at 45 with two other cooldown related talents. Replace it's current position(tier 60) with a mobility talent.

As for tier 90, Shuriken Toss is the only talent that should really be there. Combo points on the rogue should be baseline- a weaker version of that in Versatility is a waste of space, delete it. Anticipation should be baseline, but feels a bit powerful... though that may be me being jaded.

Anyway, since tier 90 is all about breaking rules, why not give us talents that mirror rogue-esque skills of other classes? That's what I consider rule breaking. Maybe a trap talent(seriously, we can disarm them but we can't design our own? despite having a tree dedicated to subtle, covert acts? despite having a move called 'Ambush' and a talent called 'Dirty Tricks'?)

This is getting long enough to be a TL;DT(too lazy; didn't type). Put simply:

-Deadly throw, Versatility, and a few other talents need serious rethinking.
-Give us a cooldown tier AND a mobility tier.
- Lv 90 tier definitely needs work.

I'll sit down and type up an organized, coherent post about my talent ideas later.
12/05/2012 09:01 PMPosted by Tyiako
I'll sit down and type up an organized, coherent post about my talent ideas later.

What you have already is really well typed and thought out. Can't wait to see more!
Give my thread some love too! QQ lol

Similarly I'd argue BF is very much part of combat's identity, especially since so many people spec combat specifically because of BF. Still, I think it makes sense to make cleaves more even between specs.

I think the important distinction between step/prep for sub and blade flurry for combat is that step/prep was pretty much all sub had. Sub has gone through so many iterations in the past 3 expansions that it doesn't have an identity, its been a mobility spec, a stealth spec, a bleed spec, a finisher spec and really nothing but a few specific abilities (step, prep, premed) have really been constant. Additionally looking at the spec now there doesn't seem to be much in the way of identity sans step and prep. Combat by contrast has a fair bit of identity to it, the rotation is pretty well understood and while there have been some changes to it you can clearly see some idenity in terms of the BG spec or the cooldown spec (I'd argue both of these descriptions are inaccurate but thats a topic for another time).

Additionally combat would still be the premier cleave spec, assassination with a much lower amount of physical damage wouldn't get nearly as much out of it. BF would still be an ability that combat got the most use from but the difference between combat cleave and assassination cleave wouldn't be 50% it might be more like 15% which while still large would probably let rogues run assassination on cleave fights if they liked the play style of main spec assassination.

I've always liked the idea of this. Would be really cool to have it apply all of our poisons. For some it might need to have them apply the concentrated form we see in Shiv (Leeching, maybe Paralytic...).

I think the new poison system offers some wonderful options for poison vial from a utility standpoint. Apply an additional effect based on non-lethal poison, crip would be like frost trap, mind numbing like solar beam, paralytic like remorseless winder and leeching like the paladin hammer talent.
I'd like to see paralytic poison and leeching re-evaluated. RNG stuns are lame and the healing off leeching is abysmal. Though I will say that our second last tier is probably our best one.
12/05/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Fierydemise
BF would still be an ability that combat got the most use from

A lot of people say this, and sure for fights with high BF uptime it is true, but sub might actually have the advantage. Basically subtlety has the best burst of any rogue spec (and pretty much any other spec in the game), and all of that burst damage is physical (including FW, though that is only on primary target and thus may not transfer via BF with the new system). This means sub could potentially have the best burst cleave, which what's useful for many fights.
I want an option like double time for shadowstep, I don't see anything wrong with that.
First, I want to say that in a great many ways the class feels improved and the talent system is a great system. Much of this might be negative, and in some ways I feel the class has lost a bit from cataclysm, which isn't good for the general population of rogues, but overall I like the attention we received coming into MoP. Particularly the poison and shiv revamp. Though, obviously, I would lying if I say I didn't wish that we would have received a bit more polish. :)

I don't like Preparation. It might as well not even exist for me without a passive cooldown reduction effect included. I still wouldn't take it against mobility talents, except under rare circumstances that I've yet to encounter.

Deadly throw doesn't belong against damage reduction talents. I'd rather see a boost to recup and/or passive damage reduction instead. I feel squishy, but I won't give up my snare that I've had in every rogue spec for years.

Crippling isn't really an option because staying topped up with our squishy selfs is more important now that recuperate was nerfed and we don't have the option to spec for more passive survivability.

Talenting poisons has turned out to be a no-brainer. If you talent one, you don't talent the other. This basically removes a whole slew of valid permutations from our talents, effectively making them a much smaller set. I don't think that they belong there.

Cheat Death is notoriously situational to border on useless in PvE and notoriously useless in PVP, because it is most often too little too late.

Leeching is the defacto PvE talent, can't use in PvP since we want mindnumbing/crippling/paralytic.

Elusiveness sacrifies energy which we don't have enough of, nor will we ever have enough to just throw around willynilly. We will always need to make the most of our energy regen to simply stay on par with other classes dps, when will we have the extra energy to throw away on small short term buff. This talent makes us choose between dps or suvivability, and does a poor job of it.

First tier is so inconsequential as to not even exist. AND subterfuge is bugged. So, basically only two choices.

Dirty Tricks feels like how rogues should work baseline. It has always felt weird to have your own class abilities negated by another of your own class abilities, especially when the abilities doing the negating a passive and/or commonly used. This goes for any class.

Prey on Weak is popular for the "OMG, damage buff!" crowd. Besides those players, its pretty meh.

Paralytic just doesn't stack fast enough to be very useful. And combat doesn't use it since it is PPH, and stacks even slower. Would love to see all poisons to be agnostic to base weapon speed at the least. Specced this talent for all of a couple of hours or so. It'll get marginally better with more haste and with certain specs, but overall very lackluster.

Ahh, the final tier.

Shuriken toss. I friggen loves this ability. This is another example of a class improvement that should have been baseline. Spamming a relatively low damage ability at range is the consolation price to being in melee range. "Casting" a throw was never rogue-like, and its most important function is maintaining buffs, or building while we aren't in melee range. We are still just as limited by energy regen, so the point isn't damage, its the combo points. You need to talent a ranged finisher to be ale to do anything other than build points or maintain buffs anyway.

The most awesome function of this ability? Killing low level mobs as easily as a moonfire spamming druid. Its great, but hardly 90 tier worthy.

Versatility. Use it until you have enough haste so that losing all those cp to corpses isn't a soul crushing experience anymore. Maybe swap it in on add switching fights. Most likely not, you'll be energy limited anyway. And most of our damage is from autoattacking the target anyway. Use it a bit, and then forget it exists.

Anticipation. The only talent worthy of of the 90 tier. Adds new dynamics to the combo point mini-game. and acts as a ghetto redirect. The only problem with this ability is that watching a stacking buff in the top right hand corner of the screen when all the action is elsewhere is annoying. But that is game-wide problem. One day, all important self buffs will show on the player frame and/or spell alert system.
My biggest concern is Preparation. As long as that ability exists, it will continue to hamper the class. It's too strong to put on a reasonable cooldown without butchering it. It's too long of a cooldown to be enjoyable or satisfying to play a game around. Blizzard can't ignore the possibility of a Rogue picking it up, so every balance decision being made for the class is filtered through the possibility of Preparation being picked.

This isn't a good scenario. No one wins.

The best solution is to remove it from the game, reduce the cooldowns of the abilities it effected if necessary, and replace it with a 45 sec - 1 min cooldown mobility talent. The only reason it's on the mobility tier in the first place is that Prep would be too powerful in conjunction with a mobility talent *even if that mobility talent wasn't reset by Prep.* That should speak volumes of how busted Prep is. The potential of the ability is so great, it's crippling the class' mobility. Because most Rogues agree that Prep is too strong to pass up, that forces us to take a 5 min crutch that isn't fun to use -- OR we opt to take Shadowstep and lack the defensive power and utility to get the job done.
12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Haileaus
What is/are your favorite talent/s?

Shadowstep, Leeching poison (almost), Dirty Tricks

2 of those cover concepts I genuinely enjoy having on a character (life drain and teleport) and the other one allows one of my abilities to actually be useful, and it's a pretty cool ability.

12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Haileaus
What talents would you like to see slight changes on?

Leeching poison is great but it needs work. It locks out paralytic, other baseline poisons, and sometimes loses healing because it's only a chance to heal.

Paralytic sounded cool in theory but in practice it's just an RNG stun.

Elusiveness isn't working the way it is. While I'm not saying it's bad, it's just not working to the point where I don't want it because then I hate pressing feint (in particular, spamming it) And the talent has other flaws (such as not working in stuns.) I always saw feint as a situational, but definitely useful ability. Making it spammable or even used on cooldown just doesn't fell right.

Nerve strike adds nothing to my gameplay, to the point I can forget about it and not notice it's there/missing.

Cheat death is garbage right now (it's possible for it to proc at 1% hp, thereby making it worthless)

12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Haileaus
What talents do you think should be removed?

Nightstalker, Nerve strike, and Prey on the weak. Neither add much (or anything, in prey's case) to gameplay.


12/05/2012 10:48 AMPosted by Haileaus
Same questions go with tiers.

Tier 1 - Basing an entire tier on stealth was probably not the best idea, considering we only use it once or twice a fight, this is a really, really ancillary bonus in most cases. Subterfuge is the only cool one, but the high energy cost of openers actually makes shadow focus more attractive (even taking into account the bug, in my opinion) Nightstalker is probably proof that there was almost no creative wiggle room in the tier design.

Tier 2 - The choice between deadly throw and combat readiness isn't interesting or even relevant. While both could be seen as "damage mitigation" n a sense, deadly throw does that job too poorly. Then add in that deadly throw was taken away from us baseline and Nerve strike is just plain uninteresting, and this doesn't feel like an interesting choice. I mean, yeah, CR vs NS is a choice, and a valid one, but NS is too gimpy. I wouldn't like it even if it were a better choice.

Tier 3 - Second best designed tier in my opinion. Leeching vs Elusiveness is pretty interesting, though elusiveness wins out because Leeching has too many flaws. Cheat death needs a lot more before I think it'll be competition.

Tier 4 - Step and prep. ugh. The choice between step and BoS is interesting though, and I'd rather see a new mobility talent placed here.

Tier 5 - The tier itself is decent (except for prey) and Dirty tricks is actually on par with para in my opinion. Well, except that paralytic locks out another talent and 2 other (arguably better) base poisons, while dirty tricks costs you nothing. Then paralytic looks kind of weak since dirty tricks can do what paralytic wants to do better (the shiv, specifically)

Tier 6 - This is the worst designed tier hands down. The only reason tier 4 shines out so much better at being a bad tier is because the choice has so much more of a negative impact on our gameplay. This tier doesn't have any reasonable choice.


The talents in general - None of the tiers have a set theme (except tier 1, most commonly agreed as the best designed tier from what I've read) Which means that while there are choices, they're not interesting choices. An interesting choice is "Do I want to climb up that ledge to get the chest, grapple the chest to me, or jump across the gap to get the chest" All 3 choices achieve the same thing - getting the chest, but the choice was interesting because I chose how I wanted to do it. Our current choice amounts to "Do I want to get the chest, or do I want to just move on and have an easier time fighting enemies" and that just causes a hassle.

So what I really want to see with our talents is just one thing: Much more consistent theming. Prep vs step isn't interesting. Deadly throw vs. combat readiness isn't interesting. Anticipation vs versatility vs shuriken toss isn't interesting. prey on the weak vs. dirty tricks isn't interesting. It's not even about the effectiveness of the talents - the choices that we were given are just plain bad choices.

edit: that ended up longer than I thought. Just read the last 2 paragraphs if you can't be bothered to read the rest.
Personally id like to be able to choose what i want my spec to be for.
If you choose PvE for a spec, the damage totals go up but survivability down. If you choose PvP for a spec then the Damage totals go down by Survivability goes up, this way we don't see Stupid nerfs that get in the way of PVE rogues just because some pally complained he was ganked by a PvP and lost.

It might help us stay competitive in PvE without being OP in PvP. I still do decent damage on this character and often top DPS meters in Normal raids (not so much in LFR) as combat but the next time some pally or DK decides to blame rogues being OP as the rason he/she died rather than the fact they didnt learn their class maybe the nerf wont hit so hard, or if Blizz decides Rogues are too OP in PvE then PvP wont be hit.
Just a thought, anyone have any ideas to add/change?

Another thing i would like to see is more for flexibility purposes.
Lets face it, right now, the Specs arnt balanced and that's before choosing talents and glyphs.
For some reason Sub is rated the highest DPS spec (I personally dont see why but then i suck at Sub), Combat is always the top DPS spec the last few years for some reason, and Assassination is currently the lowest rateing, i dont know how to balance them out myself but i do think it would be nice to have a talent that makes it a little easier to play the spec we want and not have to make the tough choice in order to up our DPS.

One case and point: For Sub and Assassination you are restricted to Daggers, this expansion, 3 purple quality daggers to be precise. The Gloam Blade if your luck to ever have it drop. Dagger of the Seven Stars, Once again a rare weapon, some get first time, others may never see. And Finally our Sha Touched Spiritsever. Once again requires a great deal of luck. If they dont drop for you, your stuck with blues and likely trail behind.
However we then look at Combat, as always a whole new world of weapon options open up.
Essentially what id love to see is a say, First Tier talent that removes the dagger restriction from Assassination and Sub moves, I know its mostly utility and probably wont do much for our DPS, But hey, Isnt this expansion about playing the way we want?

It would really just be nice to say "Oh i want to play Assassination today and i know how" and not have to worry "Eww that spec sucks compared to combat/Sub"
Take the Shuriken Toss -Grapple and mix it with the Scorpion from MK idea and just have us pull ourselves to them and jump on their shoulders like the Hozen do to people.

Let's just get the circus monkey act out in the open.
There were some good redesign ideas posted in my thread here:

12/06/2012 02:27 AMPosted by Shariadore
Personally id like to be able to choose what i want my spec to be for.

Personally this feels like something the glyph system would be better at expanding. I wouldn't mind seeing the glyph system being expanded on more to allow customization of tankiness or dodginess or crit or what have you. Talents would be the big, overarching choices (ie: new abilities), while glyphs could do all the smaller fine tuning. Warlock tank glyph (while a bit too much stuff packed into one glyph, imo) is one example of how it could be done.
My thoughts on the talents in general:

Subterfuge is awesome in concept, could do with either a damage bonus or an energy cost reduction of something around 20% on the openers

Night stalker needs...more. I don't know what exactly more, probably a different damage bonus, or applying a debuff to the target that increases damage taken by you by 10% for a short time or something.

Deadly Throw is far too expensive for what it does as a talent. Either it needs to deal far more damage (giving it decent synergy with suriken toss, but perhaps making us too effective at a range) or give it a CP second silence on the target.

Cheat death would be more interesting if the reduction was near 100%, or if it offered something similar to a 2 - 3 second pseudo-vanish. Not able to get an opener, but a target drop and allowing you to reposition yourself.

I like leeching. I just wish it wasn't being demolished in PvP. I only think the shiv aspect of it should be a bit stronger. 10% was a bit much, but 5% is rather weak.

Prep needs to go away and never come back. Ever. I can appreciate an instant CD reset, but we're still balanced around having it. I think a replacement talent would be a passive reduction in snare length, or bring back improved sprint.

BoS needs an energy cost reduction still You shouldn't have to sacrifice so much of your damage to stay out of snares, especially if they are quickly re-applicable.

Prey on the Weak is alright, but I liked the old combat version better, because it was useful both to PvP and PvE, even though combat didn't PvP much in cata.

Paralytic is nice in concept, but you should only have one poison talent or the other. Also dispel resistance, or some penalty to be applied for dispelling stacks of para poison

Versatility should be done away with and replaced with something else, redirect should then have a 15 second CD. Replace with something along the lines of the old ruthlessness talent, a % chance to be given one combo point on your target after a finisher.

Overall too I would like to see some PvE changes or additions to our talent trees, but beggers can't be choosers :(
I think many of you are substantially under selling cheat death in a progression raiding environment. We'd all certainly like to be perfect and for our raid to be perfect but if that were true everyone would be 16/16H right now. The fact is people make mistakes, I can give you a solid number I've made in the last week, and being able to eat a mistake and not need to use a brez is very powerful. It isn't just your mistakes either, if someone accidentally pops a bomb on you on dog boss or pops a spark on you on will you'll still live.

I'm not going to say cheat death is a no-brainer, it certainly isn't but in a progression environment where mistakes can, and do, happen a get out of jail free card can be a literal lifesaver.

The relative value of cheat death will decline substantially if combat becomes the primary spec and as dps increases in future tiers. Right now a good assassination rogue will get something on the order of 3-4K hps from leeching poison, about 1% hps. A combat rogue will get approximately double the value and in a few tiers as dps increases relative to health pools we may see leeching poison account for as much as 4% hps at which point it probably does become a no brainier outside of cheese fights.

From a pve perspective elusiveness is the odd man out on that tier not cheat death.
What's the utilization of the tier in PvP?

According to Guildox, it's shadow focus all the way down the line. Free openers must be pretty good.

That and last I checked subterfuge was buggy and still causing random stealth drops, which is really really bad for pvp. I haven't used it since 5.0 after I noticed the bug with it, but I haven't seen a blue post saying it's been fixed so I'm just going with it's still broken.

I don't really have ideas for new talents per se, but my opinion on the current talents..

Tier I
  • Nightstalker is garbage outside of levelling, especially when compared to the other two since they actually help with dps.
  • Subterfuge is a cool sounding talent but it's buggy as heck and too dangerous to use. If it weren't for that it would be pretty handy.
  • Shadow Focus.. Really it's the only option at the moment for both pvp and pve specs. Allows a free opener, which is some decent energy recovery time... Yeah, only choice at 90 as far as I'm concerned.
  • Tier II
  • Deadly Throw is pretty neat for PvP, I think, and I'm glad the talent is there.
  • Nerve Strike would be nice if it lasted just a few seconds longer, imo.
  • Combat Readiness is what I use, but these days I find myself simply soloing old content for pets and rep when I'm not raiding.
  • Tier III
  • Cheat Death is.. crap. Don't get me wrong, it's saved my behind a few times but when you get down to the crux of it you a) still have whatever dots/bleeds brought you low, b) still have very low health, c) Sometimes it just doesn't work, d) look at second wind, look at this. Yeah. Edit: This is from an entirely PvP perspective, what the poster above me said about it in pve is pretty good.
  • Leeching Poison is nice for PvE I guess? I mean, the healing gained from it is so miniscule it doesn't make much of a dent in raid damage taken. Not much use in PvP imo, but good for soloing old raids and doing dailies for sure, especially with the shiv effect.
  • Elusiveness, I like this talent for raiding but given the state of energy I have a hard time justifying using it over my energy reliant attacks. I mean, I hit feint when I know there's a large AoE damage thing incoming (ie crush on Garalon) but.. As far as pvp goes the damage reduction is nice but I think it's even more difficult to find the energy to use on it in this situation than in pve.
  • Tier IV
  • Preparation should be baseline. That's it. Really.
  • Shadowstep I love love love this talent. I'm glad it's around. I just hate being so susceptible to snares and roots, the latter of which step is useless for. That being said, the fact that we can step to friendly targets- npcs, non-party members as well as enemies is just friggin' fantastic and I love that change.
  • Burst of Speed, oh my love.. What happened? I remember so much excitement while anticipating this talent from a lot of people on this forum and it was just a complete flop. Way too expensive at first and now it's still kind of ehhhh at 50 energy. Honestly I think that for this energy cost the ability should both remove snares/slows and provide the speed boost but nerf the speed boost so it doesn't last as long, otherwise it'd be ridiculous.
  • Tier V
  • Prey on the Weak same as Nerve Strike, it would be good if it lasted just like.. 2-3 seconds longer, I think.
  • Paralytic Poison stacks so slow.. Whyyy D: shiv is killer though.
  • Dirty Tricks super duper nice for solo play. I'm fine with this talent as is, really.
  • Tier VI
  • Shuriken Toss should be baseline but for less damage and just completely replace throw.
  • Versatility.. I mean, Paladins and monks both get CPs stacking on themselves. This is a boring bandaid talent imo, unless it's a gimmicky fight where you're target swapping a lot. Sometimes I use it on MSV dogs, sometimes I don't. Meh.
  • Anticipation boring, but good. Unfortunately I really feel this is the only option for a pve set up. PvP, yeah probably the same boat but I'm not sure.
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