Talents and Opinions: The good and the bad.

Rogue
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Also, energy capping will only be an issue when AR is up, since (I'd think) haste would lose too much of its value if you could potentially energy cap at any given point in the rotation. Also the CD reduction during AR with the glyph would help mitigate that, plus with any luck our last tier won't have a set bonus that makes all our abilities mad cheep.


At the end of the DS there where most definitely random times in the rotation when you energy capped (and this is really what inspired an energy dump talent). Between the gloves reducing the energy cost of abilities, haste trinkets, combat rogues stacking haste as a main stat, being unable to spend energy during KS (don't even get me started on when any of these things lined up with hero!) there where many times where you just didn't have the globals to spend the enough energy.
I think whether it be baseline, a singular talent or a talent tier giving us a raid CD would be the biggest way to increase our effectiveness in PvE. With warrior banners, pally devo, stormlash/healingstream/etc from enhance shammies we kind of become the odd melee class out from a CD perspective. Here is an idea for a raid CD talent tier which would replace the second tier of talent.

Combat Readiness: Stays as is. It's the personal physical damage reduction CD of this tier.

Thick Smoke: Your smoke bomb ability now reduces the damage taken by all party and raid members inside by 20%. Lasts 8 Seconds. Increases the CD of smoke bomb to 4 min.

This would fill the role of a raid damage CD.

Live by the sword, Die by the sword: Step through the shadows to assist a raid or party member in need. While active your healthpool is shared with your target as well as all defensive abilities. Should your combined healthpool reach 0 the rogue is killed while the target is reduced to 20% HP. If you live the remaining health is divided evenly amongst the 2 players. Lasts 8 seconds. 5 minute CD.

This talent would primarily serve the role of a tank CD but could also be used to save the rogue at times. At first I thought about suggesting a pain sup type ability but it just didn't feel right for the class or unique.

I believe these abilities (or at least a raid CD themed teir) would promote interesting choices which would need to be changed on a fight to fight basis which to my understanding was the purpose of the MOP talent system.
I don't like the idea of raid cds because I think on principle only tanks and healers should have raid cds for balance reasons. If Blizzard insists on giving dps raid cds then rogues (and hunters and mages and warlocks) probably need one as well. If we get one though it should probably be baseline, I think one thing we primarily pve players need to do is remember the pvpers. We don't like that many of our talents feel like "pvp toys irrelevant to pve" and we should avoid doing the inverse in pursuit of interesting pve talent trees.
I would be honestly surprised if Anticipation were not nerfed. Maybe an ICD, chance on hit or at the least losing Anticipation on target switch outside of Redirect, since you know, target switching is what Redirect is supposed to do.

Which is unfortunate. Redirect and Shuriken Toss have no mechanical way to compete with what Anticipation does. Best they could do is leave the tier alone and accept that they made it unbalance-able outside of changes that only happen between expansions.
I don't like the idea of raid cds because I think on principle only tanks and healers should have raid cds for balance reasons. If Blizzard insists on giving dps raid cds then rogues (and hunters and mages and warlocks) probably need one as well. If we get one though it should probably be baseline, I think one thing we primarily pve players need to do is remember the pvpers. We don't like that many of our talents feel like "pvp toys irrelevant to pve" and we should avoid doing the inverse in pursuit of interesting pve talent trees.


I would agree that the tree shouldn't be focused souly around PvE choices but raid CDs bring choice to both aspects of the game. Additionally there are already quite a few choices PvP wise while PvE wise there is almost 0.

As far as raid CDs go I don't agree it should be extended to ranged DPS as well. Lets be real with each other, melee is more times than not a detriment to your raid. You could presumably stack a 10 man with all ranged DPS and (outside of a few raid CDs ;)) not really lose a whole lot. Try stacking a group with all melee and CDs or no CDs you are going to have issues. The CDs the other melee classes bring make balancing a ranged/melee group worthwhile in most cases but when you think about it from a raid leader perspective what would make a rogue more appealing than say a warrior? A warrior has shatter, rallying cry, demo banner and does similar damage. A rogue has tricks and.... mass stealth?
i think the current last tier of talents should all be basic abilities and then that tier can make way for an "Improved smoke bomb" like instead of doing nothing, it makes you imune to aoe or instead of doing nothing it silences any1 in the bomb or instead of doing nothing it fears any1 in there
Smoke Bomb: no longer a portable 5 second wall on a 3 min CD that any1 can come through, it can actualy be usefull
12/06/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Aeriwen
I would be honestly surprised if Anticipation were not nerfed. Maybe an ICD, chance on hit or at the least losing Anticipation on target switch outside of Redirect, since you know, target switching is what Redirect is supposed to do.


I do not see them nerfing the only good talent we have on that tier. I would much prefer to see them replace the other 2 talents with better options. When I first saw redirect I was very excited. Then they changed bandits guile to stack on the rogue (a needed and good change IMO) and asked myself why anyone would ever take that talent. Anticipation is not an OP talent, the other options just suck from a PvE point of view.
What I was meaning is that nerfing it is the only way to begin to make the tier somewhat viable, but nerfing wouldn't fix the core issue, so that it would likely have nothing significant done to the tier.

That is, unless they decided to whip out the full blown developer mojo on it mid-expansion, which is unlikely.

So, the most I see them doing to that tier is making anticipation charges drop on a target switch. Which I wouldn't define as significant, but it at least makes the choice clearer compared to redirect.
12/06/2012 07:13 AMPosted by Fierydemise
From a pve perspective elusiveness is the odd man out on that tier not cheat death.

I actually almost always run with Elusiveness. It's not uncommon for unavoidable AoE or single target damage to go out, and in progression raiding every bit of reduction counts. Sure, sometimes you don't need it at all since the healers are only using AoE heals, but more often than not they are stacking for those in front of the boss and with the extra 15% reduction Elusiveness gives I feel better able to set up behind a boss. Plus, for things like Empress when we are getting focused, the 30% reduction helps us not need to kite the add.

I actually think Leeching is the odd man out, since more often than not you are either overhealing yourself or the healing simply isn't enough.
12/06/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Aeriwen
That is, unless they decided to whip out the full blown developer mojo on it mid-expansion, which is unlikely.


I think its more likely than you would suspect. The fact that there are currently more ret pallys out there than rogues of all specs cannot be sitting well and has to send a message loud and clear something drastic needs to be done. I really wish they actually took our beta feedback to heart, maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are in currently.

I actually almost always run with Elusiveness. It's not uncommon for unavoidable AoE or single target damage to go out, and in progression raiding every bit of reduction counts. Sure, sometimes you don't need it at all since the healers are only using AoE heals, but more often than not they are stacking for those in front of the boss and with the extra 15% reduction Elusiveness gives I feel better able to set up behind a boss. Plus, for things like Empress when we are getting focused, the 30% reduction helps us not need to kite the add.

I actually think Leeching is the odd man out, since more often than not you are either overhealing yourself or the healing simply isn't enough.


I agree with everything said here (except for the empress part, I'll pop feint if I get focused by one of the ones near me but I still haul !@# =P).
12/06/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
(except for the empress part, I'll pop feint if I get focused by one of the ones near me but I still haul !@# =P).

Hehe! Well I suppose if I were caught without any CDs then I might but generally I prefer to just tank them and then if I get below maybe 25% then sure, I'll sprint/SS away. Course Evasion and CR (if I have it) are my first courses of action.
Hehe! Well I suppose if I were caught without any CDs then I might but generally I prefer to just tank them and then if I get below maybe 25% then sure, I'll sprint/SS away. Course Evasion and CR (if I have it) are my first courses of action.


I just sprint away and shs when in range to one of the adds on the other side of the room (are there 2 sets on 10 man? I forget, only did it once on 10 man).
The last tier is kinda silly. They all should be damage related to make them all just as apealing, but have their uniqueness for example:

Scrap Shuriken toss, and versatility, change anticipation and add fun machanics for every spec related to the last tier talents.

For sub:

Shadow Master(Passive)
-Reduces sprint CD down to 30 secs
-When you Sprint: Engulfs your feet and main hand weapon in shadows, increasing your Sprint movement speed to 100% up from 70% and your movement speed to 125% up from 114% after sprint fades for 8 seconds. Your sprint also will break any slowing or rooting effects. If the rogue is able to successfully backstab its target while sprint is active, It will deal an additional 300% main hand weapon shadow damage up to 2 times.

Hunger for Blood
- Your rogue skillfully attacks enemy preasure points in their body, turning your Eviscerate into an instant Bleed damage which ignores armor just like a normal bleed would and increasing its damage by 50%.

Anticipation
-Reduces Evasion to a 30 sec cd and has a chance to reflect spells now
-When you Evasion: Puts the rogue in an enhanced mental state increasing increasing their dodge to 50% and spell reflect to 50% for 8 seconds. Eveytime the rogue successfully dodges or reflects an attack, the critical strike on their next offensive special ability is increased by 100% up to 5 charges of Anticipation which will fade in 30 seconds if not used. 1 Anticipation charge per special ability. (No longer turns into a combo point and its now a Crit buff used when special abilities are used)

They should add a fun mechanics that makes this talents active like for example for sub to have rupture require 4 bleeds on a target and be only energy based yielding cps. Hemo, backstab, evis, and crimsom add bleeds (change crimson to energy based yielding cps).

Basically when the rogue gets on someone: Hemo(1bleed 1cp) - Backstab(1bleed 1 cp) - Crimson(1bleed 1cp), add 2 more cps, then Evis(1bleed)

With a single rotation u got 4 bleeds and rupture becomes available. Rupture the target and the last tier talent becomes active to use. Now depending on what u chose you are gonna deal damage in different ways while at the same time having different kinds of mobility, survivability, and damage.

When I see blizz making an expac this is what i expect. IF you like it help my comments reach blizz.
Elusiveness:
I'm going to quote a post I made yesterday on elusiveness to illustrate why it is underwhelming.
Garalon probably comes closest to the the optimal damage profile for elusiveness but I'm still not sure its the best option. Crush does 250K damage every 30 seconds (25 man heroic values), feint reduces the damage to 125K, elusiveness reduces the damage to 87.5K saving you 37.5K damage taken every 30 seconds. As a rogue you are on the legs pretty much full time so you are probably doing approximately 95K dps to the legs meaning you are healing yourself at 7.5K hps. Given those values that additional damage saved from elusiveness you make up in 5 seconds. Obviously this isn't completely accurate since you will receive some healing and this isn't counting the effect of fury stacks but broadly speaking leeching poison comes out pretty strongly ahead.

The fundamental problem with elusiveness is feint is already good enough, that extra 15% DR is rarely going to be the difference between living and dying since at 50% DR rogues are already pretty well above everyone else.


Anticipation:
I really don't seem anticipation getting nerfed because just about any nerf that brought anticipation down to the level of ST and vers would make T6 almost completely ignorable and that is a step in the wrong direction. One good talent that crushes all others is much better then 3 talents no one cares about.

Raid CDs:
The same argument you make about rogues and warriors can be applied to mages and ele shamans. Yes there are more ranged slots available in most raid groups but that doesn't mean a raid leader doesn't have options about what ranged dps to bring or recruit. If dps are going to have raid cds then everyone needs a raid cd.

Empress:
You don't tank all the little guys together and all the two big guys together? Since you are going to trap the big guys anyway (you are trapping right?) damage on the big guys is pretty much wasted damage.
12/06/2012 10:28 AMPosted by Fierydemise
I'm going to quote a post I made yesterday on elusiveness to illustrate why it is underwhelming.


Sometimes that damage is going to be the difference between life and death while the healing from leaching poison is a slow over time type deal. You are rarely in danger of dying slowly over time, far more likely when there is burst. A perfect example I would have to say is H Bladelord. For unseen strike raid members who weren't topped off would sometime because killed (sometimes becomes "often" in the situation where a few people durp and don't get it) whereas I'd be sitting at above 50% HP.

The same argument you make about rogues and warriors can be applied to mages and ele shamans. Yes there are more ranged slots available in most raid groups but that doesn't mean a raid leader doesn't have options about what ranged dps to bring or recruit. If dps are going to have raid cds then everyone needs a raid cd.


Mages have hero. Ele shamans have hero, stormlash, healing tide and that other spell that turns their damage into healing. On top of this they are ranged. You could clear any boss with the following DPS comp: Magex2/Lockx2/Ele/Hunter. Try garalon with 2xRogue/2xWar/2xRet. Group 1 is superior 10 times out of 10.

Empress:
You don't tank all the little guys together and all the two big guys together? Since you are going to trap the big guys anyway (you are trapping right?) damage on the big guys is pretty much wasted damage.


The little guys fixate so they usually wind up all over the place. We typically do not tank the 2 big guys together nor do we dps them (unless we are running out of small adds and need more goo for traps in which case theres nothing else to dps anyways).
Tier 1:
From a pve standpoint we are kinda boxed in with sub having to pick subterfuge and other specs having to pick Shadow Focus. Don’t see a way around that. I haven’t PvPd much but I can see really wanting to take Subterfuge but not being able to due to it taking me out of stealth. Would be nice to see Nightstalker baked into Shadow Focus (maybe with each effect nerfed, definitely damage part since it would be even more required in PvE). In return we could get a talent that punishes people from taking the rogue out of stealth. I’m thinking something along the lines of:

Nifty Name: Whenever stealth is broken by a hostile attack the rogue gains a shield that absorbs damage equal to 10% of their health and increases damage dealt by 50%

Tier 2:
I don’t PvP and none of these affect PvE with the possible exception of Combat Readiness, so anything I say is heavily based on what I read on these forums. But anyway, I think these talents should all be a bit more powerful.

Deadly Throw’s damage is just embarrassing, and should at least interrupt casts at fewer CP. Keep the lockout at 5 CP or make it change depending on how many were used. Seriously, at least buff the damage to make it worthwhile, I promise rogues will still always want to be in melee range.

Nerve Strike: I have nothing to say about this except that the talent doesn’t appeal to me very much and I’d be disappointed if it were clearly better than the other ones in the tier.

Tier 3:
I like all of the abilities in the tier, but they are quite uneven. Elusiveness is good and the other two should be brought to its level.

Leeching poison should either get a buff, or give a shield proportional to the amount of over-healing done, capped at a certain percentage of the rogue’s HP. I personally like the latter idea, as it would help ward off burst damage which is generally the only time when you need a heal in PvP and raids.

Cheat Death just needs a buff. There have been a lot of cool ideas on this thread about it, pick one. I personally like the idea of attacks during the 3 secs after cheating death to heal the rogue. Would make it a lot more interesting for opponents in PvP.

Tier 4:
Prep doesn’t fit. Remove it and add something else. Again there have been a lot of ideas. I personally like the idea of a grapple which increases speed and grants immunity to snares when going towards that enemy. Is pretty unique and could be balanced easily enough by altering the CD. I see it as being an ability that would last a while and have a decently long CD (lasts 30 sec w/ 45 sec CD, breaks if enemy goes too far away).

BoS should be buffed slightly by either granting both effects or decreasing the energy cost by 5-10.

Tier 5:
Honestly I haven’t done much with this tier or thought about it. I will say, however, that I’d very much like to use Paralytic Poison and have it be viable, and hearing that it isn’t saddens me. I generally like the ideas of both Leeching and Paralytic poison, but don’t spec into the latter because I’d always rather have Leeching and don’t like changing my talents around that much.


Tier 6:
Every talent should be as interesting, dynamic, cool, fun, beautiful, and yes, sexy, as my baby Anticipation. In my superior opinion it is far more interesting than Shadowblades, and should not be changed. That said it is clearly better than the other talents in its tier. There is no reason that the final tier of the rogue talent tree should have abilities that so much less interesting, dynamic, cool and fun as Anticipation. What I’m getting at is the other talents need a lot of love. Let’s see:

Shuriken Toss: Generally a good idea for a talent, I see its main problem being that in PvE it is too situational. I don’t know how it holds up in PvP but I’m under the impression it is competitive. Perhaps there is a way to get Shuriken Toss into the melee rotation as a slight buff to PvE? I’m thinking something along the lines of having it do more damage the fewer CP that are on the current target. That would also make it more useful to use Deadly Throw as a CP dump, though DT still needs to be more than a CP dump.

Versatility: This seems clunky, especially with Redirect taking a GCD. I wouldn’t be opposed to removing the ability and replacing it with something more interesting. I mean, Anticipation does the same thing anyway with Crimson Tempest being able to transfer Ancicipation charges to another enemy! And the way Anticipation does this is a lot more interesting (“That’s what makes it beauuutifuuuul!”). Basically I think Versatility should at least make CP stack on the rogue, and at most be completely changed to fill another niche. Unfortunately I don’t have a suggestion, but there have been a lot of good ideas floating around in this and other threads that could be used.
I'm brainstorming REALLY HARD right now. So think of this more as a general concept rather than a cohesive suggestion. It's mostly just demonstrating something that I think would be incredibly fun.

Expect this to be overpowered and underpowered by degrees, I'm just trying to make a general point.

Anyway, replace our level 90 tier with the following choices:

Path of the Assassin
Previously: Anticipation.
Focus: PvE.

Does everything anticipation already did, plus...
  • Offensive finishing moves refresh expose armor to its maximum duration.
  • Negates the energy cost of feint and removes it from the GCD.
  • Negates the energy cost of tricks of the trade and removes the damage component.
  • Some other stuff.

Path of the Rogue
Previously: Versatility.
Focus: soloing/PvP.

Does everything versatility already did, plus...
  • Shiv can no longer be dodged or parried.
  • Increases healing taken and reduces damage taken by X/Y%.
  • Reduces the cooldown on Vanishand Cloak of Shadows by at least 30 seconds.
  • Passive, fully-functional deadly brew (with no delay).
  • If subtlety, energy regen is increased by recuperate instead of slice and dice.
  • Etc.

Path of the Thief
Uh... !@$# if I know. I'm out of ideas. Shuriken Toss would have to go baseline for use alongside Path of the Rogue, permanently replacing Throw (no loss there). Potentially this could be very similar to Path of the Rogue just split them up: have one concentrate on healing while the other prioritizes mitigation, while both optimize PvP viability, letting people pick the one they prefer; or maybe just general sneakiness.

Other possible themes are energy management, blade flurry... I'm sure we could think of several.

These are basically the kind of differences different specs once offered via their talents pre-5.0, this is simply allowing you to make (hopefully) gameplay-adjusting choices while playing any spec.

Very rough-cut, but that's my idea. >_>
I like it, would be a pretty major overhaul but would be really cool to make our final tier talents buff significant parts of the class!
12/06/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Verelyse
Path of the Thief


Tricks of Trade becomes a single target taunt.

Feint's cooldown is increased to 1 minute and decreases damage by 20%.

Recuperate gains an instant heal effect.

Slice and Dice becomes Shield of Blades. A torrent of whirling Blades absorbs damage that is increased by mastery.

Distract becomes poison vial. A targetable aoe pool of poison.

Combo Points stack on the rogue.

All poisons grant the weakened blows effect.

Passive:
Increases the armor by 350%, reduces all magical damage taken by 25%, reduces all physical damage taken by 12%, and reduces the chance you'll be critically hit by melee attacks by 6%.


You're welcome. :P
I likes it!

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