Talents and Opinions: The good and the bad.

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Give us back step as a base ability. Problem solved. KTHXBAI
12/07/2012 10:30 AMPosted by Heiphi
Give us back step as a base ability. Problem solved. KTHXBAI

I think you missunderstand the point of this thread. This while this is partially a thread about fixing current rogue issues, it is generally a lot more than that. By only mentioning SS are you saying you are cool with all the other talents/tiers? Even if you are, what would you replace SS with in the tree?
Rather than a Raid wide Stealth on a 5 min CD, a Raid wide Cloak of Shadows would be beneficial for both PvP and PvE.

As far as talents, it's not as cut and dry, because you want them to be desirable but not mandatory.

Being that they base our defensive cooldown times in PvP off of the possibility of taking Preparation, I'd really just make it baseline at this point and add another mobility ability into that tier. A targeted leap type ability similar to Heroic leap would seem in line with the ideas present in that tier.
Tier 6 needs a little bit of work. Versatility needs a buff, putting combo points on the rogue and Anticipation needs to not be such a single target dps gain but still useful. Maybe if finishers didn't cost energy at all rather than being refunded 25 at 5 points it would be a lot more optional. They say that having combo points on the rogue is against the rules. Guess what? Tier 6 is the tier for breaking those rules.
12/07/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Delus
and Anticipation needs to not be such a single target dps gain but still useful.

There is to be no talk of nerfing Anticipation on my thread.
12/06/2012 02:06 PMPosted by Fierydemise
I agree, I think if Blizzard wants to give us a raid CD it should be done baseline.

Surely the raid cooldown would be something for tricks of the trade?

12/07/2012 09:31 AMPosted by Vaelarrus
Shadowstep and Prep both need to be baseline and the level 60 talent tier should just revolve around shadowstep (remove Burst of Speed), just like hunters have a tier for disengage and warriors have a tier for charge

Yes, yes, a 1000 times yes.

I'm less concerned about Prep but my PvP brothas seem to really want it baseline. I absolutely agree that baseline shadowstep is something I personally fought for: it adds to the cool factor of rogues. Give me longer range options, disentangle options, whatever.

Combo points on rogues: just don't quite see why they are so reluctant to do it.

Anticipation adds a tiny amount of depth to our rotation. It had better stay. Shurken toss replacement for throw, please. Even at less damage. You can absolutely keep the talent and buff it for PvP. But it's a great pulling tool which I would use if I wasn't afraid I'd walk into a raid and realize I had forgotten to respec to anticipation. Level 90 tier would be great baseline but, you know, you don't want to suggest too much baseline.

I personally think the idea of an AoE tier is just freakin' brilliant. Our AoE is just an abomination to me, extremely clunky, frankly kind of dumb.

I'd like to see some fiddling with Tricks, a disguise ability for rogues more reliable than pick pockets (as a fun talent), and some acrobatic maneuvers for rogues. You know, just while I'm fantasizing.
Now that i'm thinking about it again, and right now i only want to think about our mobility tier since i just woke up and it's the first thing that struck me.

I want to see prep removed and our defensive cooldowns reduced in cd durations accordingly. I'd personally much rather have a short evasion, vanish, etc rather than having to go click prep and move on from there. Especially when i might only need an extra vanish but i'm reseting everything else anyway regardless of their time on cd.

Let's be straight here, BoS doesn't really seem to have much pve viability. I could be wrong? I don't know. I just have never bothered with it. Why take BoS, an energy sink when you can just Sstep to your target, or step to a friendly target closer to the boss.
With that said i don't think it's unreasonable to add in another mobility talent that caters to pvp. The whole tier seems to cater to it anyway.

To comment on our last tier a bit, i have no love for any of it. Anticipation is a safety net that ret pallies already get. Versatility is a improvement to our system that monks and rets already have a better version of. And Toss is mediocre at best, i enjoy using it in bg's, but i can assure you no tears would be shed if it was removed.
To replace them i'd like to see perhaps some talents that direct themselves toward each spec.

For example a poison AoE similar to the one from ToC. The poison will do heavy aoe damage and silence targets within the effect. Right there you have pve viability for a strong AoE, and pvp for a silence and an aoe damage. Maybe if it doesnt sound too OP you can maybe choose where to cast the Aoe as oppose to how smoke bomb works.

For combat? I'm not really sure, if anyone else has a good idea i'd love to hear it. I'm not feeling very imaginative.

An lastly a sub catered talent. I'm thinking something that plays off shadowblades. Blessing of the black dragon? Increases damage done by 20%, reduces damage taken by 20% (because the dragon scales ya kno?) and all attacks cause shadow damage for 10 seconds? Maybe it's too much with the shadow dmg at the end. But at least it could have a badass animation.

I think if we could make a 90 tier that had pve and pvp viability for each one, and cater to one spec specifically, even though that spec doesn't have to take it i think we'd be solid. Like sub doesn't have to take the sub catered black dragon talent if say they're more interested in the silence. Idk, just some thoughts, spare my feelings please. Some feedback would be cool, think it over.
Honestly I would love to see Prep removed from the game. Overly powerful situationally, and less than desirable otherwise. Make ShadowStep baseline. From there, i would make the mobility tree this

Improved Vanish: Lowers the Cooldown of Vanish by 30 seconds, Vanish now can be cast twice on 2 seperate timers (Think Charge talented).

Improved Shadowstep: Lowers cooldown to 12-15 seconds. Shadowstep does not go on Cooldown if used from stealth.

Burst of Speed: (Replaces Sprint) Costs 30 energy. Keep the same effect it has now but lasts 5-6 seconds and is usable from Stealth without breaking.

That would fix our mobility tree entirely in my opinion, thoughts?
Being able to step continuously during stealth may be a bit over the top in my opinion.
I would however really like to see BoS shine. Perhaps give it a cd of 4 seconds, removes movement impairing effects and stacks a speed boost of 10% per time you use it lasting X amount of seconds and capping off at 70%
Naphe, the problem with that tier is that taking BoS would be actively bad in PvE and Imp Vanish could arguably be too good. Also SS definitely always needs a CD, but sure maybe half in stealth.
Disagree with the idea that ShadowStep always need a CD in stealth... it would just make it usable in stealth. The current state of it is that if you use it in stealth, you are bad.

With no CD in stealth it would let you chose your target, pick your moment better, as well as being able to avoid some aoe if you were quick enough.

The vanish concern could very well be valid, but the numbers could be tweaked to appropriate, but having double vanish would essentially be what prep was for vanish, leading to more 'erratic' behavior on the part of rogues which would make guessing their movements harder and would allow rogues to vanish more freely as they would have the second one as an escape mechanism if still needed.

In all honesty, looking at the choices i listed, i think most of my choice would be dependent on spec... Then again in PvE people with theorycraft it to the point that one will be decidedly better than the others and most pve players would pick it regardless.
Consider SS with no CD in stealth's synergy with subterfuge. You could sap/stun all but one member of a 3s team and still get a good opener on the kill target. In addition with free saps it would also be pretty OP. Imo that's just too good in terms of mobility.
Lol, you can do that now... if you don't do that now... well i don't know what you are doing in 3s then... Pop Sprint, sap your first target, open with stun on second inside 2 seconds, then step to third for (redirect/evis(if sub for premed 4-5 pt starting finisher))/ambush(or garrote)... not very difficult.. it would actually be HARDER to do that hitting shadowstep in between 3 times... and only in VERY specific scenarios would they all be so spread out that you couldn't do that, in which case you should be taking advantage of their bad as a team anyways keeping heals from dps and bursting someone down before a heal is landed...

in Cata (only played for the first 6 months) i could easily control 3 people at the start of a 3s match for the first 15 seconds... nothings changed now except you have subterfuge to get off an extra stun...
first off i would make prep baseline rogue ability and remove energy cost to finishers.

next i would remove elusiveness and prey on the weak talents and put paralytic poison in the same tier as leeching poison.

Elusiveness is a boring talent, very useful but boring. A active no cd defensive ability, I would rather have a whole new ability then modify an old one, something like chance for the attack to hit the rogue is reduce by #%. (anything but dots already applied onto the rogue).

Prey on the weak, again very useful but a boring talent. Its boring because it really doesn't add anything to my game play besides a bit more dps.

At this point we are missing one talent in the tier with shadow step and burst of speed and missing two talents in the tier with dirty tricks ( one if include the new active defense ability).

I would add a talent the reduces the cd on vanish to # min in the spot of prep. Rogues are about this mechanic know as stealth and we need more options or more often to return to stealth. Another possibility is a new type of vanish where it prevents healing onto the rogue and can but very often (like cost # energy) but after the "new vanish" buff is expired the rogue returns to being visible like normal (prevent healing because otherwise rogues would be impossible to kill with a healer).

Tripwire would be a cool talent, just does a knockdown and a half sec stun when ever a enemy crosses it would be cool. you can make it feel very rogue like by having the effect based between to daggers stuck in the ground that are stealth expect when a player is tripped. maximum of # daggers and can only be cast when in stealth, it gives rogues another thing they could do when they are in stealth.

For me the biggest thing I hate about rogues is the dependence of SnD, I would like a talent where I can have SnD down at points in a fight and still be acceptable. right now the only time SnD is acceptable to be down is when we are not actually fighting something. for example: a talent which increases the effect of SnD but adds a cd to it. If a effect would refresh Snd it would instead reduce the cd but only a limited number of times.
completely agree with the idea of SnD being completely necessary and hating it... There is NO choice when it comes to finishers... well, i guess you could argue to recup or not to recup, but otherwise, it is, keep SnD up, keep Rupture up, Eviscerate. I use clcinfo with a basic rotation for pvp (moreso for ret paladin but i digress) and it is as simple as spam generator, use secondary generator (when buff procs/falls off depending on spec) 5 CP SnD, Rup, Evis.... it is boring having NO choice, letting finishers be within 5-10% would be appropriate of overall increase seeing as Evis is more on demand, rupture off target, snd on target dps... Even a FCFS rotation is more entertaining and requires more thought than rogues
12/05/2012 11:39 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Shuriken Grapple- 25 yard range. 45 second cooldown. lasts 15 seconds.

I think a cooler idea for this would be a Scorpian-esq "GET OVER HERE"

Ummmm, Death Grip much?

Although it was Scorpion's move first!
In the beginning, I was one of the players who was against the new talent trees. I felt they took too much away from us(Rogues) and some other classes and gave very little in return. Especially paired with the ‘All of that is baked in now’ tripe that left out key staples (Serrated Blades, Imp Recup, Blade Twisting, Enveloping Shadows, because it shouldn’t be a glyph.)
Now however I realize there is some merit to the new design; Blizzard just did it wrong. I don’t mean to bash, but many of us have come to expect a half baked job, given that we are the ‘perfect’ class(this never made sense to me, especially given what our 90 talents are). In any case, the new system would(and can be) great, but everything I have in mind would probably not make it into 5.2. I will still spell out the gist of it here.
Tier 1
Stealth tier- Arguably our best designed, real choice tier. If anything at all, Subterfuge and Nightstalker need minor buffs/fixes. My only real complaint is BoS breaks stealth. Ultimately though, any time that would be spent on this tier would be more appreciable elsewhere.

Tier 2 (and 3)
I’m putting these two together because both deal with damage recovery, but ultimately the six talents spread between them don’t mesh very well into a good theme. Of them, I feel only elusiveness and nerve strike fit the bill. The rest are too costly(Leeching Poison), Not available as often as needed (Combat Readiness) Or far, far too situational (Cheat Death, Deadly Throw). As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I’d condense ‘damage reduction’ into one tier, and put a Cooldown Tier after it at 45.
For damage reduction, the reality is we need some measure of short cooldown defense. It doesn’t need to be much, but we need something to at least delay being destroyed outside of cooldowns(PVP). My Tier 2 would include:
An improved Nerve Strike viable in PVE:(In addition to Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot, whenever you apply your concentrated poison with Shiv, you apply the Nerve Strike effect)
Reasoning: Too many of our talents are great in PVP, but leave PVE rogues out in the cold.
An improved Cheat Death: When you receive otherwise fatal damage, the attack will instead be absorbed, and for the following 3 seconds all incoming damage will be reduced by 90%.(1 minute cooldown) In addition, whenever you take more than 10% of your health in damage from a single attack, ability, or spell, you take steps to defend yourself, reducing all damage taken by 15% for 3 seconds.(10 second cooldown)
Reasoning: Cheat death only shines at the moment when the rogue about to die. If one plays effectively, then essentially it is never needed. In situations where it is needed, Cheat Death hardly delays death, let alone allows escape from it. It needs to offer additional bonuses to be a valuable choice at all times, and it needs to be reliable at the critical moment as well.

Tier 3

With damage reduction on a smaller level on the previous tier, that opens up room for a Cooldown related tier, since Cooldowns have always been and likely will continue to be a big part of rogue play, despite what the Devs will tell you. Combat rogues might hate me for this. My talent choices here would be:
Preparation: Basically resets everything.
Restless Blades: Your finishing moves reduce cooldowns by X seconds per combo point.
Rapid Recovery: Old school Elusiveness/Crouching Tiger Hidden Chimera- your cooldowns are reduced by a base X amount. Given that we sort of got that baseline with this latest patch, maybe make it so being rooted/slowed reduces sprint/vanish cd’s, and taking damage reduces evasion or Cloak cd’s, whichever is applicable.
Basically this introduces a real choice for rogues on how they want to manage cooldowns. One provides you with a passive recovery, one improves as you manage effective play, and one gives you a second chance to recover/setup a devastating combo.

Tier 4

Largely unchanged. Prep is moved to tier 3(let’s be honest, even if prep/step is too powerful, they should never have shared a tier. Period.) And replaced with a mobility talent. I have a few mobility ideas, and would love to hear more. In addition to:
Burst of Speed(No longer breaks stealth)

I’m thinking:
Pursuit: Whenever you activate Slice and Dice, you gain 10% movement speed per combo point for 5 seconds.


Pursuit: As long as Slice and Dice is active, your movement speed is increased by 40%.


Slippery: Movement Impairing effects are reduced by 30%. In addition, passively increases your movement speed by 15%(Stacks with Fleet Footed)

Reasoning: As I said, Prep had no business being on a mobility tier. We need a unique and effective means to get on target- nobody wants a charge clone.

Tier 5:
I’m not really sure of this tier. It’s trying to be utility, but as usual, it is personal, almost exclusively PVP utility. I don’t like the poison talents; more on that later. That being said, there are tiers more in need of attention. The only thing that I think is a *must* is the removal of paralytic.
Tier 6:
Two skills that alter our combo points in ways that should be baseline. One little gem in Shuriken Toss. As I stated earlier, Versatility/Anticipation need to go, but I feel the latter might be too powerful to be baseline. As for versatility, honestly, delete it. You don’t even need to put CP’s on the rogue. But having Versatility in the current state of the game is just insult to injury. Just get rid of it. Give us something worthwhile.
I like the theme of ‘breaking rules’ but we don’t really ‘break rules’ so much as ‘play by the same rules as others’. I think it would be a nice touch if we got skills that really, really changed our playstyle(not simply how we manage combo points.) Consider how warlock talents change up strategies, or druids’ talents.

The sort of ability that immediately comes to mind is a trap. It doesn’t have to be anything too elaborate- just make it something we set up and trigger(or an enemy triggers) and make it(here’s the kicker) do something different for each spec. This sort of ability would be rogue-esque but still keep the spec flavor separate. Imagine:
Needle Trap:
Assembles a trap that fires out deadly needles in a 10 yard radius when tripped or triggered. Deals X amount of damage and (Assassination) applies both poisons to your target, as well as the concentrated form of your nonleathal. (Combat) weakens the victim’s defenses, increasing the damage they take from your attacks by X. (Subtlety) applies a bleed that deals X extra damage(and synergizes with Sanguinary vein).

As far as talents the talents I’d like to see removed:
Leeching/Paralytic- These talents are great(some exaggeration), but in a game where we can only pick one of each type of poison, they don’t shine as much as they possibly could, especially considering they share a slot with crippling. No, putting crippling poison on a pvp set doesn’t help.

Beyond that however, paralytic is just a dispellable mace stun. Leeching is nice, but hard to justify(or rather, would be if we had more exciting poisons. Note: We should have more exciting poisons.)

I honestly think they should just make paralytic poison an assassination rogue thing. Since that spec is all about the poisons. I think leeching should be too, as a passive attached to other poisons. Maybe make it baseline for all rogues, and then a stronger version for assassination only. I’m really not ‘too’ big a fan of self-healing as a rogue(id rather see other defensive fixes) but if it’s to remain a tool in our kit, it should get some tweaking.

Combat readiness- bake it into evasion. The two of them together only do half the job of protecting from melee. With the damage some physical attackers(hunters, warriors) are throwing around, even if it gets up to 50% reduction, their first few heavy attacks landed with only 10-20% reduction. And evasion, well, it’s easily circumventable. There’s a reason evasion-esque skills come with some form of damage reduction- because no matter how high the evade percentage rises, things can and will bypass and/or negate the cooldown.
Deadly Throw: It was baseline, and after the glove bonus was changed, it wasn’t overpowered. Imo, give it back as a baseline ability- not a finisher, just a ranged knockdown on a 30-45 second cooldown. Maybe make a glyph to remove the knockdown and add an interrupt.
Versatility- Delete it. Seriously. No compensation(other than a worthwhile replacement talent) required.
Anticipation- On short notice, I’d say drop the number of points stored to 3, though that might not be necessary. Either way, it should be baseline.
Cliff Notes:
The talent tree really doesn’t make sense. Very few of the talent tiers are well designed, especially compared to some other trees. Even accounting for the lack of flavor and outdated mechanics(those newer, shinier toys everyone else got) they are poorly balanced and offer very limited benefit, especially for PVE rogues.
Trash the bad talents. Put the poison stuff in assassination, give us a cooldown, minor defense, and mobility tier. Give us talents that actually perform differently per spec/glyph- noticeable differences. Give us a 90 tier that REALLY breaks the rules. Put deadly throw back- give it the expose armor treatment. Combine Evasion and Combat Readiness.
Just because we all take a talent, doesn't make it good. That's the problem with our trees. Most of are talents are so pathetic, that you just have to sift through and pick the least garbage talent. The final tier being a perfect example.
^ This one thousand times (tho i do like the idea of Shuriken Toss but not as a top tier talent) None of our talents in the Talent trees make me go, OH I WANT THAT! even if it was at the cost of something else (which it never is)

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