Are you serious?


Couple things.

Made up statistic, but I'm willin to bet 90% of the forum population aren't rankin Mages and could actually use the flexibility of IW to increases their dps substantially, but because of jacked mentalities like yours they feel obligated to use the "best" talents and end up doin even less than they should have.

I was even nice enough to provide my source for my information which was Lhivera's blog. If you are too lazy to even properly read my posts, don't bother responding.

12/07/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Añd
Playin RoP and Invocation perfectly is much much harder than simply usin IW. Any If you ever have to cancel an Evocate for whatever reason you'll lose far more dps than you gain by takin Invocation over IW.

And if you push off IW's cooldown or use it without lining up procs beforehand you're losing far more DPS than you gain by taking IW because of DPS loss during burst windows... just like I said and is repeated in the source I linked you that you completely ignored. And that's always the choice even when optimal IW usage is available you either: A) push off its cooldown to wait for procs or B) use it without lining up procs beforehand greatly diminishing its benefit.

12/07/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Añd
The realistic gains from Invocation and Rune of Power (read not perfect usage) are barely ahead of never usin IW's shield. You can dispute this all you like, but this was the case all the way back in beta after the last changes to the level 90 talents and unless somethin changed that I wasn't aware of, it should continue to be the case now. I wouldn't mind a link to where you had learned about the 11% number though as I'm mildly curious about it.

I already linked my source but here it is again: The realistic gains from Invocation for Fire and Frost are not "barely ahead" of the passive IW. The difference is more than 10% DPS except in the case of Garalon where you're pawning off your survivability on the healers. That's suboptimal play, not "screwed up thinking". You don't do good DPS when you're dead and you don't down content when other people are dead because the healers are oom because you wanted to play it easy rather than safe. Even normal mode content has tight enrage timers, especially Garalon the only fight where IW is even viable (or Stone guard when Emerald is up, which is 3/4 raid weeks).

The only actual important part is that IW is most definitely worse for controlled burst windows. Obviously you cant use the burst except for when theres damage goin out, meanin there are several times where you wont be able to gain a burst when you need a burst (Elegon bein a prime example of this).

No the important part is that mage DPS is dependent on high damage spikes during burst windows like Garalon legs, FoF/Brain freeze procs, icy veins/combustion/arcane power, and any of the other smaller burst windows that are always optimal for Invocation users and sub-optimal or micromanaged for IW users.

12/07/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Añd
My major point is that people need to stop payin attention to people like you 100% of the time, the "There can be only 1!" crowd. You all poison the well for new players and make them do incredibly terrible things that make the game far less enjoyable for them than it should be.

People should be listening to people like me because my well thought out, reasoned, and sourced arguments that point out that 1 talent is clearly superior to all of its alternatives for all 3 specs is the best chance we have for blizzard to seriously consider changing the Tier 6 talents. If all three choices are (incorrectly) seen as substantially equivalent, we won't be seeing the QoL changes mage needs.

12/07/2012 08:26 AMPosted by Añd
As I said earlier in this very post. The majority of the people who post in these threads are not rankin mages. They're not runnin hard modes. They're not world first players. These are the people that force themselves to use Rune of Power and Invocation because some jerk told them it was the only answer when that is most clearly not the case. These people (I will freely admit I am one of them) would gain far far more damage by usin the "bad" choice of IW versus the "good" choice of Invocation/Rune of Power.

No one is holding a gun to your head. Its a fact that Invocation is substantially better DPS than its alternatives for Frost and Fire while also providing vastly more survivability than IW in all circumstances. Can you run IW? Yes. Will it nerf your damage in almost all cases? Yes. Will it hurt your survivability? Yes. Its sub-optimal, and pointing that out doesn't make me a "jerk". If you don't want to use it, then don't. But don't act like you aren't willfully hindering your performance by doing so, making up numbers out of wholecloth like "invocation is only a 7% gain" ignoring sources you've already been given to the contrary.
12/07/2012 01:26 AMPosted by Coldstreak
Is this the part where you tell us you play a warrior or a lock?

I play all classes. I prefer a warrior, but I mained this guy last expansion. I love mages but the playstyle is over the top easy for the damage output. I saw a mage in PvE doing insane damage purely off of ice lance. 100k dps with mostly ice lance spam. I have a pic too if you want it. My main concern is pvp though.

In random bg's, it's not hard to play any class to it's full potential. Otherwise, you wouldn't deal "100k dps with mostly ice lance spam."
12/06/2012 09:42 AMPosted by Oaklander
You do realize that a LOT of specs have poor level 90 talents, right? I mean paladin, hunter, DK and druid level 90 talents are poor, why should mage level 90 talents be any different? Perhaps the level 90 talents are not supposed to be awesome at all. You are just angry at GC because he nerfed your spec.....sour grapes.

It's not so much that the talents are lackluster, it's more that the talents actually make the class less fun to play.

I look at the current level 90 talents in a similar way to the initial mechanics of Holy priest's chakra, back when they had to activate chakra, then cast a corresponding spell to put them in a state that had a limited duration. Sure, it made them better, but it wasn't fun at all to have to micro manage that.
So, finally got around to rereadin Lhiveras blog and now have to ask if you yourself read Lhiveras blog.

Relevant part of the post that you seemed to ignore.

Some people have argued that it's still going to be near 100%, because any clod can watch a timer and know that it's time to Evocate. But it isn't just about being smart enough to use the abilities, it's also about how practical it is to use them under various situations. The devs are fully aware that there are encounters that will reduce the amount of time you can spend standing in one place, or may randomly interrupt a channel. They don't ignore things like this while they design abilities; they account for them when deciding how much uptime qualifies as using the ability "reasonably well." We don't know what that value is — and indeed, there probably isn't a hard and fast value, since there are so many variables.

Why is that point relevant? Because you ignored it. Completely.

Optimal usage, as in 100% perfect uptime, on Invocation is 11.29% damage. It is not expected for you to have 100% uptime on Invocation though nor is our damage balanced around 100% uptime. The number she settled on for the quick and dirty version was 80% uptime. High, but not unreasonable to reach for. The damage increase with that is only 8.89%.

Lhivera points out that the sustained dps numbers between the 3 talents are fairly similar. The major difference between them bein the amount of burst dps gained while the 3 talents are in use. IW comes out the weakest of them due to the nature of its burst proc. Unlike the other 2 you can't fully time when you'll get the damage increase, so you mostly rely on the passive for the damage numbers. Invocation obviously has the highest increase in burst damage and Rune of Power comes solidly in the middle.

I'm quite saddened that you completely missed the point of that blog yet felt the need to quote it at me like you were knowledgable on the subject.
Invo's really strong not just for its flexibility, but getting one for free at start, and it's further augmented by Time Warp and all those buffs proccing. It's a rather sizable headstart and Blizzard was attempting to do something about that during the early PTR. As Fire, there's nothing I need to use RoP on, but IW has its uses on a couple of fights.
12/06/2012 12:31 AMPosted by Crimestopper
I'm here to complain about GC and say that he's bad at his job
I'll be honest. I don't know what GC's job IS (as in, literally what he does. Not "WHAT DOES HE DO." I literally do not know his job in full), so I dunno if he sucks at it, but he said he'd look at Mage parses to see if Fire had dropped significantly (It did) and then address it (barely!). When he was shown parses, he insisted that it wasn't varied enough anyway and ignored it.

Whether or not he's bad at his job, it's hard to deny the guy kind of screwed us.

As for the 90 talents, they aren't...BAD. They're just really lackluster.
Like, I was excited to try out Avatar on my Warrior. The buffed Unleash Elements is great fun, and I can't wait to get the 90 talents for my Paladin. But for my mage?

I feel like I could not get any of them and my DPS does not change. In fact, in the case of Rune of Power, all that would change is my source of regen blows if I have to move, and it's like I DIDN'T choose a talent. Meaning I either stand still and my DPS drops (Invo) or I get hit or my DPS will drop (Ward).

It's not a fun decision. I either willingly root myself, throw myself into trouble, or willingly silence myself.

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