DK PvP Question

Death Knight
So aside from all the angry comments, why are we talking about blood in pvp? We all know Blood is a decent flag carrier and will always win a duel, but it doesn't do enough damage to be an effective arena spec.

DPS DK's have 2 heals, both being talents, no ERW, dark succor glyph is useless even in rbgs, theres healers there for a reason, RW is decent when fighting around nodes but it is for catching players who are half asleep.

On cc I just read a comment by a warrior who is complaining that with gag order removed he has too little cc and avatar changes makes him too immobile. We have strang 2min cd CoI and DG + Chillblains/asphyxiate RW/GG. Warriors have AoE stun every 20secs, disarm, fear, hamstring (double duration of CoI). Our cc is almost non existant compared to other classes
I think its close. I think we feel so underpowered either because A. we are, compared to warriors, mages, hunters, and locks or B. Because we need to be buffed up towards those other classes, along with many other classes.

I assume we are talking frost and probably unholy. Everything I am saying from the prospective of someone not hitting 90 yet too so ... yeah. But in BGs I can still top the dmg charts IF im on my game and have a healer or dont get focused. But I die way too easily sometimes. I also notice I cant get HKs for crap anymore.


Why is it that I along with many other people have no problems with the class? It's not the class, it's the player.


Do you guys not find it strange that players who have little to no pvp experience are the ones saying that DKs are fine.....but every single gladiator, and rank 1 player will tell you that DKs need buffs.

Let me explain why this is happening...there are 2 options

A) You do not play your DK and are just trying to make sure DKs do not get buffed.

B) You have learned to use your defensive cooldowns effectively, and are running against 1500-1800 teams. You think DKs are fine, because you rarely see teams coordinate CC, and burst together. As soon as you see these two things come together you will truly see how gimped DKs are.

I am at a complete loss as to how you guys think our CC is ok...our CC is !@#$ and extremely easy to counter. Dark Sim would be worthwhile if every single top end player didnt have an addon screaming in their face when dark sim is put on them.

Every single other class has TONS of CC...all of our CC is honestly crap or on a way too long CD. If they want to fix DKs they really need to pull strangulate down to 1 minute, and give us a bit stronger defense against physical damage classes.
12/13/2012 05:34 AMPosted by Eiríkur
I assume we are talking frost and probably unholy. Everything I am saying from the prospective of someone not hitting 90 yet too so ... yeah. But in BGs I can still top the dmg charts IF im on my game and have a healer or dont get focused. But I die way too easily sometimes. I also notice I cant get HKs for crap anymore


Dk's almost always top damage because we spread diseases all the time. The only problem is if the damage is actually killing people or just damaging them a little. So the arguement of well dk's top damage is irrevelent (not that im saying your argueing just people in general) because any class that has dots could probably put them on everyone and watch the damage come in. Maybe not as well as dk's though. (affliction locks could probably do just as well but haven't seen any in bg's or paid attention if i saw one.)
We've gotten just slightly off topic.
Now that the terrible troll is gone.

I feel DK need slight buffs, but I agree with OP. We can be left alone, if they tune warriors / BM / heals / mages down a bit, we will be in a much better place.

Overall it just angers me that warrior + mage have been broken since BC days, and they still are broken when it comes to PvP.
What they need to do:

Defenses: Buff IBF to 35% and/or give us boneshield baseline. Also make IBF useable while silenced along with Death pact.

Make death's advance baseline for all specs and replace it with desecration, or make chillblaines frost baseline and death's advance unholy baseline. Replace desecration with the death's advance and chillblaines with something else. (don't know what) The first choice is probably a lot better.

Buff death siphon and conversion to a lvl where there actually viable to choose over death pact.

Make strangulate a 1 min cd off gcd and cost no rune or give us back the original blood tap.

Make unholy better and give timmy the ghoul equal health as a hunters pet so you don't have to babysit him as much.

Anything else i'm missing?
@sia please stop talking about DKs in pvp until you actually have done some pvp.
12/11/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Siameren
our utility sucks


Anti-magic zone, 10% melee haste buff, dispels from Icy Touch, ground AoE for getting stealthies, protecting the flag, and slowing groups of people, interrupts, silences, healing absorption and cast time slowing, along with constant pressure on all targets from DoTs means that our utility is fine. Not to mention that we have the most OP spell in the game when it comes to dark simulacrum. If you know how to use it, you can certainly steal a really nice spell to help your team out. Steal a penance, or a sheep/fear spell and you're golden.

our peels suck


Two death grips, constant slowing from your howling blast (on multiple targets) Constant chains of ice roots and slows, DND AoE slow, ghoul stun, interrupt from mind freeze, and full silence from Strangulate, Gorfiend's grasp for a third *And AoE* Death Grip, or Remorseless winter for not only an AoE slow, but an AoE stun.. Our peels are also fine.

and our cc suck


Our CC abilities are much the same as our peels abilities. We can keep things at range pretty easily, we have a stun (if talented for).. We don't have any outright CC abilities that last for 12 secs, but we honestly don't need them.

and our survivability sucks


Our survivability is fine. Honestly, people complain so much because they get beat by people, and never stop to think that maybe.. Just maybe.. It's them, and not the class..

You have death strike which in most cases is good enough, you have your lichborne for anti-fears, and healing with death coil (which heals for quite a bit if you have the gear to support it) You can glyph for Death coil to give you a shield for the amount of damage that it does. You have your death pact which heals for 50% of your health, and more if you activate blood presence just before hand. You can use your blood presence to heal for more after you kill someone with your glyph of dark succor aswell, same with death pact. (You get the buff only while in frost or unholy, but it still works if you switch to blood spec)

If you take all your healing abilities, and Ice bound fortitude (which also removes stuns so you can get to that healing that we're so good at) into consideration with all the utility and CC that we provide, you can do quite well.. Stop complaining and learn your class.. If you can't learn your class go play a frost mage.. 2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3... Might suit you better.

Did first arena in 2009. 3 years later, no 1550 achieve. For my first 1550 2s achieve I logged in my friend's account and entered arenas by myself clicking as a blood bad and I grazed 1700 a few times. There is absolutely no excuse you can possibly make that you have played for 3 years and never gotten 1550. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.
Peeps' uptime on a dk is usually near 100%. Could use a better or separate defensive cd.

Possibilities are shorter cd's on our defensive cd's (IBF, AMS, Ghoul Sac) or buff to death strike only for frost/unholy.

Strangulate should be off GCD, 1 minute and not use a rune. Or add some other utility that doesn't require a choice between chillblains and asphyx.
Peeps' uptime on a dk is usually near 100%. Could use a better or separate defensive cd.

Possibilities are shorter cd's on our defensive cd's (IBF, AMS, Ghoul Sac) or buff to death strike only for frost/unholy.

Strangulate should be off GCD, 1 minute and not use a rune. Or add some other utility that doesn't require a choice between chillblains and asphyx.


Against any other class other than a melee you never have anywhere close to 100%.
Peeps' uptime on a dk is usually near 100%. Could use a better or separate defensive cd.

Possibilities are shorter cd's on our defensive cd's (IBF, AMS, Ghoul Sac) or buff to death strike only for frost/unholy.

Strangulate should be off GCD, 1 minute and not use a rune. Or add some other utility that doesn't require a choice between chillblains and asphyx.


Against any other class other than a melee you never have anywhere close to 100%.

i think he ment their uptime on us
I think blizz messed up where they reduced the amount of helaing we recieved from deathstrike. The amount of healing that we receive from it now after 5.1 is just .07% of our max health which is not even enough to help us survive unless we have ICB or other defensives up and sometimes even then is still barely helps otherwise the healing we recieve from it is basicaly a waste of runes when other classes can hit for more than 2x the heal we just got from it.
Don't play it. Don't even mouse over it on the character selection screen. Just make a warrior, they're better in every single way. Dks are complete garbage and you will get wrecked every time you try to PvP outside of a bg with multiple healers babysitting you.
12/11/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Siameren
our utility sucks


Anti-magic zone, 10% melee haste buff, dispels from Icy Touch, ground AoE for getting stealthies, protecting the flag, and slowing groups of people, interrupts, silences, healing absorption and cast time slowing, along with constant pressure on all targets from DoTs means that our utility is fine. Not to mention that we have the most OP spell in the game when it comes to dark simulacrum. If you know how to use it, you can certainly steal a really nice spell to help your team out. Steal a penance, or a sheep/fear spell and you're golden.

our peels suck


Two death grips, constant slowing from your howling blast (on multiple targets) Constant chains of ice roots and slows, DND AoE slow, ghoul stun, interrupt from mind freeze, and full silence from Strangulate, Gorfiend's grasp for a third *And AoE* Death Grip, or Remorseless winter for not only an AoE slow, but an AoE stun.. Our peels are also fine.

and our cc suck


Our CC abilities are much the same as our peels abilities. We can keep things at range pretty easily, we have a stun (if talented for).. We don't have any outright CC abilities that last for 12 secs, but we honestly don't need them.

and our survivability sucks


Our survivability is fine. Honestly, people complain so much because they get beat by people, and never stop to think that maybe.. Just maybe.. It's them, and not the class..

You have death strike which in most cases is good enough, you have your lichborne for anti-fears, and healing with death coil (which heals for quite a bit if you have the gear to support it) You can glyph for Death coil to give you a shield for the amount of damage that it does. You have your death pact which heals for 50% of your health, and more if you activate blood presence just before hand. You can use your blood presence to heal for more after you kill someone with your glyph of dark succor aswell, same with death pact. (You get the buff only while in frost or unholy, but it still works if you switch to blood spec)

If you take all your healing abilities, and Ice bound fortitude (which also removes stuns so you can get to that healing that we're so good at) into consideration with all the utility and CC that we provide, you can do quite well.. Stop complaining and learn your class.. If you can't learn your class go play a frost mage.. 2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3... Might suit you better.


Everything you say looks good on paper. But try doing that in a PvP enviornment when warriors are basically killing you in 3 GCDs. The fact that you can't ignore is that we are squishy as hell, even with our defensive CDs up. 20% reduction? On a 3min CD?? Don't make me laugh, that's isn't going to stop much.

Sure I would love to be in blood presence but then our RP generation and dumping is far less efficient, pretty much gimping our damage. Why can't we stay in blood presence like warriors can stay in defensive stance? Hm? The only thing the warrior loses is a little extra rage which the probably don't even need to still global somebody.

All our CC and survivability has some sort of stupid gimmick that we have to deal with. (example: Remorseless winter. Really? We have to wait 5 seconds for it to stun? I would gladly take hungering cold back with a cast time. Because most aoe CC SHOULD have a cast time, which they are looking at doing anyway come 5.2) We could easily be dead before that 5 seconds has even elapsed. And forget the stacks, they can just be cloaked or dispelled anyway. Healing? Death strike doesn't do anything. We have to use two runes for that for 7% health when its way better spend on obliterate anyday.

My point is, our CC and survivability could def take some looking into. We need more reliable CC and defensive CD's could stand to be reduced a little maybe. Hopefully they fix this insane damage output soon, then maybe the defensive CDs are fine. But our CC definitely needs some love.
Do you guys not find it strange that players who have little to no pvp experience are the ones saying that DKs are fine.....but every single gladiator, and rank 1 player will tell you that DKs need buffs.

Let me explain why this is happening...there are 2 options

A) You do not play your DK and are just trying to make sure DKs do not get buffed.

B) You have learned to use your defensive cooldowns effectively, and are running against 1500-1800 teams. You think DKs are fine, because you rarely see teams coordinate CC, and burst together. As soon as you see these two things come together you will truly see how gimped DKs are.

I am at a complete loss as to how you guys think our CC is ok...our CC is !@#$ and extremely easy to counter. Dark Sim would be worthwhile if every single top end player didnt have an addon screaming in their face when dark sim is put on them.

Every single other class has TONS of CC...all of our CC is honestly crap or on a way too long CD. If they want to fix DKs they really need to pull strangulate down to 1 minute, and give us a bit stronger defense against physical damage classes.


Needed adjustments for our 90 talents

Remorseless winter

Duration 5 seconds
Stuns for 4 seconds after 2 stacks
45 second Cooldown
(so it has to be reacted to immediately) not giving players ample time to call out for a Dispell or leisurely leap away. also would mean if you dispel it at 1 stack the stun can be reapplied during the same CD.

Gorfiends Grasp

45 Second Cooldown
Grip Ranged increased by 5 yards to (25 yrds)
In addition to its current affect it also heals the death knight 10% of his maximum health for every player gripped (yes if you grip 10 players it will be a 100% heal)

Desecrated Ground

Radius increased to 12 yrds
Cooldown reduced by 30 seconds (1.5 min CD)
Makes the Death Knight immune to Silence, Root, Stuns, Disorients and other player controlling effects (does not break or make you immune to disarm though) as it should be somewhat counterable

Base class improvement

Ice Bound Fortitude increased to 30% dmg reduction, Runic Power cost removed usable while silenced.

Talent Improvments

Conversion - Ticks of healing from Conversion can now proc Runic Corruption, Blood tap and Runic Empowerment. (trading Frost Strike/Death Coils/Rune strike for rune regen basicly)

Death Siphon - Heals the death knight for 10% of his maximum health + 100% of his str dmg component unchanged.

Chillbains - snare increased to 60% (same snare as untalented chains of ice)

Death Advance - the on use affect now breaks root affects (does not grant immunity to roots, usable while silenced)

Asphyxiate - Current affect left unchanged however the asphyxiated target shares 30% of the dmg done to the DK (off the GCD, like an offensive Hand of Sacrifice).
Why did I come here looking for constructive advice for my death knight -_-
edit:While I'm here I may as well ask DW or 2H for frost PvP? I'm just below 1500
I think DKs are fine. A few adjustments might work, but enjoy running my DK in 2v2s and pvp.

If you're wanting to go 2200, then you may have to learn how to up your game a bit. There are a couple of very good DK youtubers who can show you how. As for me. I hate not getting to 2200... but then again, I'm here to have fun, pwn a bit, and enjoy the game. BTW, I run 2v2 with the most broken class of all (partner is a rogue). You won't hear complaints from me though. It's pure fun (even if when we lose). But when we win... man, it's epic.
12/11/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Siameren
our utility sucks


Anti-magic zone, 10% melee haste buff, dispels from Icy Touch, ground AoE for getting stealthies, protecting the flag, and slowing groups of people, interrupts, silences, healing absorption and cast time slowing, along with constant pressure on all targets from DoTs means that our utility is fine. Not to mention that we have the most OP spell in the game when it comes to dark simulacrum. If you know how to use it, you can certainly steal a really nice spell to help your team out. Steal a penance, or a sheep/fear spell and you're golden.

our peels suck


Two death grips, constant slowing from your howling blast (on multiple targets) Constant chains of ice roots and slows, DND AoE slow, ghoul stun, interrupt from mind freeze, and full silence from Strangulate, Gorfiend's grasp for a third *And AoE* Death Grip, or Remorseless winter for not only an AoE slow, but an AoE stun.. Our peels are also fine.

and our cc suck


Our CC abilities are much the same as our peels abilities. We can keep things at range pretty easily, we have a stun (if talented for).. We don't have any outright CC abilities that last for 12 secs, but we honestly don't need them.

and our survivability sucks


Our survivability is fine. Honestly, people complain so much because they get beat by people, and never stop to think that maybe.. Just maybe.. It's them, and not the class..

You have death strike which in most cases is good enough, you have your lichborne for anti-fears, and healing with death coil (which heals for quite a bit if you have the gear to support it) You can glyph for Death coil to give you a shield for the amount of damage that it does. You have your death pact which heals for 50% of your health, and more if you activate blood presence just before hand. You can use your blood presence to heal for more after you kill someone with your glyph of dark succor aswell, same with death pact. (You get the buff only while in frost or unholy, but it still works if you switch to blood spec)

If you take all your healing abilities, and Ice bound fortitude (which also removes stuns so you can get to that healing that we're so good at) into consideration with all the utility and CC that we provide, you can do quite well.. Stop complaining and learn your class.. If you can't learn your class go play a frost mage.. 2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2,3... Might suit you better.


you are so !@#$ing correct it's beyond me.

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