LFR loot system is deeply flawed.

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Bash, the problem is in the design itself. LFR is a good thing, it allows players who ordinarily would not have the opportunity to see and play end game content. Some people because they are very casual, some because they are new to the game, some because finding a guild group on their server is very difficult because of attrition or slow server death.
But, the game play experience is a reward for time spent only the first few times you run an instance. This isnt a single play through game. The reward mechanism is profoundly different.
After the novelty wears off the reward for playing is progressing your character.
The problem is you tacked the reward onto a pure, unmitigated, noninteractive random chance.
Some of your players will get gear very fast, leaving only a few pieces to be filled in with valor (Except for weapons of course, those have to come from raids), others will get dumped on by the RNG gods. The failbag isnt a reward, its the same gold you used to get from killing bosses before the new loot system. Its repair and materials costs. It just mitigates some of the time it takes to actually play the fame.
The question is, how cool are you with players getting pissed off at a system that builds expectation "drop the loot i want oh god drop my loot" only to reply "HAHAH, DOUBLE GOLD". To which the player response might be "crap, ill get it next week" the first few times, and "I WANT TO STAB WHOEVER PROGRAMMED THIS IN THE <expletive deleted> GENITALS" thereafter.
You can tell them "you should enjoy what we give you because we think its fun" but if they disagree. . . which one of you is wrong?
Random chance is fine. But unless the valor gear doesnt include the same stuff as the raid gear. . . then you arent really mitigating the inevitable effect of bad luck. There was no replacement for Sha-Touched weapons at the valor vendors. If the look or stats of armor isnt the same then settling for valor gear isnt the same as getting the stuff you actually wanted off a raid boss. If you really want to upgrade a trinket and you look at the valor one and say, "it might have better stats but i just really hate on use trinkets" it isnt the same.
You are very smart people, and have access to a massive crowd sourcing tool to filter through for suggestions.
Adapt to the consumers and the market they represent, dont expect the consumers to adapt to you and be cool about it. You arent Apple.
02/18/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Bitarsson
Or that there are a buttload of people out here stuck on the low end of the RNG curve?

There are probably a few, but 99% of the ones who post on these forums are not actually getting unlucky, they are just whining and don't understand how much loot is supposed to be dropping. So yes, our first assumption is that you are not being honest about the amount of loot + ones you don't use + duplicates puts you in the area of 15%. It's a crying wolf situation, we hear what you are saying from a dozen other people who are just whining.
I think the loot system is fine. a bit frustrating when you get the same piece again, or get nothing for weeks though. I would love to be able to give the shoulders I won to someone else in the raid that needs them since I already have them. like I've said before it would be nice if there was a sort of trade system so you could trade an elder charm to someone who won a piece you want if they already have the item. It would be win/win and it would be totally up to the person who won the loot if they wanted to trade it or not, since you can't see what others win. it would require a different type of trade system though, maybe call it "raid trade" when you open up raid trade with someone and put a piece of gear in, it automatically puts an elder charm in the other persons loot side, and if the other person hits trade, they are trading an elder charm for the piece of loot. one person gets loot they can actually use, the other person gets another chance at loot later on.
What is blizzards goal: to keep people playing
How does blizzard achieve its goal: managing the reward for playing the game
What is the reward for playing the game: entertainment, accomplishment, power

Does the new LFR system and the mitigating effect of valor effectively reward players for their time spent?

If you look at it in aggregate, probably. If you look closer at the edges, zoom in on the variation from the mean of the curve. . . not really all that well.

The new LFR system isnt exactly bad, it does what it is supposed to do for the majority of players. But it could be much much better and a more creative and adaptive design could smooth out those deviations that aggravate the player base.
Yeah, other than the 54 coin rolls he conveniently left out, and all of his "assumptions". Yup, math.
OK... how about the fact that you're claiming each Sha kill as dropping loot for you when most of the pieces it drops are PvP pieces and you've already gotten half the useful PvE pieces (the legs and gloves) that it drops? For all I know you won PvP pieces off Sha that aren't showing up in your armory. You're also ignoring the fact that most of the time you're going to win duplicate pieces on kills, and the odds of useful loot dropping goes down as you run more and more LFRs and outgear the content. The fact remains that your ilevel of 481 is respectable and expected of someone who exclusively runs LFR. If you're still short 3 pieces that's because you haven't been spending your valor wisely. I started playing in December and am already fully geared (in my resto spec) with the exception of my Sha touched weapon (which is only a 5% chance of dropping each week). Only 4 of my pieces come from LFR, but you don't see me making ridiculous claims that LFR drop rates are keeping me from raiding. Good players make their own luck when RNG isn't on their side. Instead of wasting your time QQing over your lack of luck in LFR why don't you spend that time researching your class, planning out your future valor acquisitions, and studying normal mode boss fights so that real raiding groups won't "laugh at you." It's not like raiding opportunities are scarce on Stormrage.
The way loot is handed out in LFR is horrible. I have been doing raids in LFG for awhile now, and I have yet to see anyone get a tier piece. I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen. There should be a system in place much like the one that checks classes to ensure people do not get duplicate loot items. If they LFR tool is suppose to be a means to bridge the gap between newer players and getting them caught up ilevel wise this is a catastrophic failure. Actually if anyone is getting duplicate loot this is a massive failure. Sorry, but there is no way to spin this into anything other then a broken system.

#118
1/16/2013
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01/16/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Bashiok
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. T


Bash, no. LFR works extremely well for what its intended to do.
LFR loot system does not. They are not the same thing. Neither are they the same as group raiding.

Problems with random loot:
Strings of bad luck
Type 1: one particular piece of loot never drops. Say hello to Ashjre'thul off Chromaggus back in the day or my DS gloves.
Type 2: Duplicate, or unusable drops. Going to be irritating no matter which loot system you use. If you are going to allow duplicate drops to occur, consider allowing players to have it D/E'd by the system at the very least. Otherwise you get a vendor piece which sells for less than you get off the boss/from the failbag.

Strings of good luck
In group raiding, the group progresses through the raid as fast as their skill and dedication allows without the gearcheck being a problem.
In LFR, players get everything they want and stop LFR on that toon, which means either they play. . . stop playing until the next patch which could cost you money, or play alts.

This is a necessary side effect of your decision to use pure random chance.
I wont even begin to go into the coins. Its one thing to put 2 hours or so minimum of dailies to rep up and get valor, its another thing to add a reward mechanism that makes people feel like they wasted their time when it fails.
Good players make their own luck when RNG isn't on their side. Instead of wasting your time QQing over your lack of luck in LFR why don't you spend that time researching your class, planning out your future valor acquisitions, and studying normal mode boss fights so that real raiding groups won't "laugh at you." It's not like raiding opportunities are scarce on Stormrage.


1000 times this!

02/18/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Ronduwil
It's not like raiding opportunities are scarce on Stormrage.


They probably are with his attitude.
at this point the failbag or "gold" roll off a coin should play the sound clip from Willy Wonka where he yells "YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE!"
02/18/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Urchak
at this point the failbag or "gold" roll off a coin should play the sound clip from Willy Wonka where he yells "YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE!"


YES!!!
02/18/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Urchak
at this point the failbag or "gold" roll off a coin should play the sound clip from Willy Wonka where he yells "YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE!"


omg best idea of the thread so far!
Problems with random loot:
Strings of bad luck
Type 1: one particular piece of loot never drops. Say hello to Ashjre'thul off Chromaggus back in the day or my DS gloves.
Type 2: Duplicate, or unusable drops.


Both of these issues are true in normal raids as well as LFR. Valor pieces are supposed to help offset these.

02/18/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Urchak
Going to be irritating no matter which loot system you use. If you are going to allow duplicate drops to occur, consider allowing players to have it D/E'd by the system at the very least. Otherwise you get a vendor piece which sells for less than you get off the boss/from the failbag.
This would be awesome and would eliminate most of the QQ over duplicate loot. Unfortunately it would also cause Sha crystal prices to plummet, which is why I think this won't be implemented for another few patches at least. When heroic dungeons start dropping purples that you can DE I think we might see the same option added to LFR.

02/18/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Urchak
In group raiding, the group progresses through the raid as fast as their skill and dedication allows without the gearcheck being a problem.
Most of the time gearcheck is not impeding progress. Mechanics are. Better gear gives a little more wiggle room, but the wiggle room remains pretty narrow. Again, valor is supposed to help mitigate this a little bit.
This is so true. They should create some form of currency, such that as you do more PvE content, you accumulate said currency, and then you can use it to buy epics that are the same level as epics as normal raids. That way, even if you get unlucky, you can eventually buy gear and get geared up through the currency. They should call it valor.


LOL - I love the sarcasm. I'll just save up some valor and buy the good trinkets or sha-touched weapons or any weapon really or tier pieces with valor when they don't drop. I really want my 4pc and it's only 1000 valor away!!!

Oh wait, I really shouldn't spend my valor on these pieces. It's only one week until the reset and those pieces might drop next week. There is no other way to upgrade my items besides valor, so wisely I will spend my VP on upgrades. I'd be foolish to spend VP on an off-piece when it could drop next week, but those item level upgrades only come from valor.

I love the concept of item upgrades, but having the upgrades cost VP was a terrible decision.
02/18/2013 12:56 PMPosted by Anaximandar
I love the concept of item upgrades, but having the upgrades cost VP was a terrible decision.
It was a good way to fix the problem you had in DS where 3 months into the raid VP were completely useless except as a means of generating extra cash by buying BoE items. The upgrade system is now intended primarily for successful raiders (like you) whose gear is going to be much better than anything you can buy with valor points. Everyone else is probably simply going to offset bad RNG with their VP, leaving little of it (if any) for upgrades. That having been said, the shieldwall trinket, Heartwarmer Medallion , is better than your Scroll of Revered Ancestors so even at the end of the content release your VP are useful for something other than upgrading. That's really the heart of the problem. Blizzard fixed the same problem in two different ways: Valor cap is much lower valor so gear takes longer to acquire and VP can now upgrade existing items so you have something to do with your excess valor. Unfortunately because of the first fix there is no excess valor left over for upgrades so the second fix is redundant.
The loot system is flawed because it was born out of and after the flawed community it is designed to serve.
i would like to be allowed to trade items to other players. i often get loot i dont need, and it makes me feel good to give it to others.

one mans repeat loot, is another man's treasure
02/18/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Ronduwil
I love the concept of item upgrades, but having the upgrades cost VP was a terrible decision.
It was a good way to fix the problem you had in DS where 3 months into the raid VP were completely useless except as a means of generating extra cash by buying BoE items. The upgrade system is now intended primarily for successful raiders (like you) whose gear is going to be much better than anything you can buy with valor points. Everyone else is probably simply going to offset bad RNG with their VP, leaving little of it (if any) for upgrades. That having been said, the shieldwall trinket, Heartwarmer Medallion , is better than your Scroll of Revered Ancestors so even at the end of the content release your VP are useful for something other than upgrading. That's really the heart of the problem. Blizzard fixed the same problem in two different ways: Valor cap is much lower valor so gear takes longer to acquire and VP can now upgrade existing items so you have something to do with your excess valor. Unfortunately because of the first fix there is no excess valor left over for upgrades so the second fix is redundant.


But that is my point. I won't spend the VP on that trinket because Spirits of the Sun might drop from Tsulong next week. Lord knows I've spend enough charms on Tsulong in LFR and normal. I can't upgrade my shoulders with anything but VP.

Honestly, I would much rather spend VP on my DPS spec so I'm not terribad when my raid asks me to DPS on a 2 healer fight. But I just can't because I'm hurting my main spec potential.
02/18/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Ronduwil
OK... how about the fact that you're claiming each Sha kill as dropping loot for you when most of the pieces it drops are PvP pieces and you've already gotten half the useful PvE pieces (the legs and gloves) that it drops? For all I know you won PvP pieces off Sha that aren't showing up in your armory. You're also ignoring the fact that most of the time you're going to win duplicate pieces on kills, and the odds of useful loot dropping goes down as you run more and more LFRs and outgear the content. The fact remains that your ilevel of 481 is respectable and expected of someone who exclusively runs LFR. If you're still short 3 pieces that's because you haven't been spending your valor wisely. I started playing in December and am already fully geared (in my resto spec) with the exception of my Sha touched weapon (which is only a 5% chance of dropping each week). Only 4 of my pieces come from LFR, but you don't see me making ridiculous claims that LFR drop rates are keeping me from raiding. Good players make their own luck when RNG isn't on their side. Instead of wasting your time QQing over your lack of luck in LFR why don't you spend that time researching your class, planning out your future valor acquisitions, and studying normal mode boss fights so that real raiding groups won't "laugh at you." It's not like raiding opportunities are scarce on Stormrage.


Love the various assumptions, that since my own game experience doesn't match your own expectations...why, obviously I'm at fault. Not the loot system. You do realize that for there to be a median, it follows that there's a low and high end of the curve?

"For all you know..."? Dude, pull your head out your heinie...the Sha PvP drops have better PvE stats than anything I got. If it'd dropped, my toon would be wearing it. You that desperate to discredit me, and why? Does my lack of drops because of really crappy RNG offend you so badly your brain siezes up?

What, if I post enough, the fricking Blizz Loot Fairy is going to drop a set of gear on my head? How many straws you people going to clutch at? And why? They make the loot system drop more consistently for all players, it detracts from you...how? You think my story is really all that unusual? Hot news flash...it's not. Probably buried in the bowels of your own mega-guild, more than one player with a similiar story, but since he's not geared well enough to raid, you've never even heard of him...other than to tell him to quit QQ'ing in guild chat about his drops. Ring any bells?

VP...why yes, I could buy, for example, a set of shoulders. That would raise my iLv, about 1 point, maybe 2. I'm sitting on 3 weeks of painfully ground out VP...you tell me, spend it NOW on a non-tier piece of gear, that will have to replaced, with 5.2 being released in a couple week, that will render every bit of gear I have obsolete? Or wait and spend it with the new faction that sells iLv 522 gear starting @ neutral rep? Is this "planning out your future valor acquisitions"? Blow it now, hoping to get into a raid, that is yesterdays news at this point? 5.1 is dead and over with for all intents and purposes, to be re-visited someday on achieve runs. Speaking of, when was last time you invited an iLv 479 0/16 fury warrior into YOUR "real raiding group"? You ever been that desperate for a mdps? Gonna carry them out of the sheer goodness and purity of your heart? Nice platitudes...in reality, well "your mileage may differ"..."LFM MV, min iLv 485, min 6/16, Straight 6, pst iLv and exp"...that is reality...

Zip it Grandpa, no one cares how hard it was back in the days you played WoW by candlelite.


I think I've seen enough to know what you are now. I suggest you reroll a human on facebook and try QQ spec, it's the most suitable build/class for you.
VP...why yes, I could buy, for example, a set of shoulders. That would raise my iLv, about 1 point, maybe 2. I'm sitting on 3 weeks of painfully ground out VP...you tell me, spend it NOW on a non-tier piece of gear, that will have to replaced, with 5.2 being released in a couple week, that will render every bit of gear I have obsolete?

..that is reality...


I took your wall of text and fixed it for you. You really need to realize you are arguing with some players that have been raiding for EIGHT YEARS! You seem to covet VP and act like it takes such a massive effort, while in reality it can be capped in ONE DAY. -I do it on eight toons and I can go 4 weeks without seeing a drop in LFR, I don't complain, do you know why? Because the VP and GOLD I'm getting, ontop of the tokens is ALL GEAR, which, by the way is MUCH BETTER than LFR loot. Are you seeing it yet?

Also, you must realize your VP is worthless in 5.2 because EVERY patch, it is reset.

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