Out of Date Prot Guide, please delete <3

Warrior
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12/26/2012 07:24 PMPosted by Lowmaine
If I've left anybody out, it's totally not on purpose. Feel free to yell at me later or something :P


STILL YELLING AT YOU FOR BEING LEFT OUT D:

Also, requested sticky again. Silly CMs.
12/28/2012 12:43 PMPosted by Hërbert
i feel this guide is far too much about the abilities on paper, and not enough about gameplay. it's very good for what it is, but i think you should have talked about "how" to tank as a warrior, not just the abilities/glyphs/talents and so forth. you didn't mention how to start a pull, or go much into mitigation. update?


Tell me how it's ambiguous and I'll fix it to be less ambiguous.

What about the rotation section is ambiguous? How is it ambiguous? How can it be made less ambiguous?

I'm not trying to sound like a smart-!@#; I'm genuinely curious. Aside from spelling out a rotation, how can I go about making gameplay more transparent for you?

Explain and you shall have your updates :)
Bumping this since it isn't stickied yet
+1 because you finally finished it.
Did they just very recently hotfix the last stand/rallying cry thing? I would swear up and down that I could cast both buffs on myself.
Failing that, can both buffs be active at once, if another warrior rallies you?
12/26/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Lowmaine
Last Stand: Increases current and maximum health by 30% for 20 seconds. 2 minute CD


Last stand is a 3 minute CD, and only reduced to 2 minutes with the 2 piece tier bonus, which will probably be changed next tier like it always does.

12/26/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Lowmaine
Keep in mind: Rallying Cry puts Last Stand on cooldown for 10 seconds, and Last Stand puts Rallying Cry on cooldown for 20 seconds, all to prevent you from using both simultaneously, but other than that there is no limitation on these abilities like in Cataclysm. Feel free to help out your raid when applicable!


This is only true in 1 way. You can use last stand, and then use rallying cry, and you still get the benefit of both. However if you use rallying, you cannot then use last stand as it goes on a 10 second global cooldown. Why it works like that, I do not know. But you could stack them in cata if you had other warriors in the raid I believe, so who knows. I would advise a fix on this.

Second Wind: This talent is great. I love it. Hands down, probably our best (if not, definitely in the running) talent this tier. It's passive and activates automatically, and triggers at the point where it can either make the most difference, or do absolutely nothing perceivable due to you getting panic healed by your healers. This ability (personally) hasn’t been too useful outside of soloing, 5mans and LFR, but it’s still a compelling option in the right situation.


No. This talent is good for 5 mans and MAYBE LFR and anything lower than that. Going into normal and heroic raiding, this talent is complete garbage. I have gone through entire encounters where it will heal me for less than 50k, when I could pop 1 enraged regen that will triple that healing done. Yes, it heals at the best possible time, but time spent from 35-0% on most fights is very little, healers don't like you sitting that low, and you risk being 1 shot at that point. This talent should almost never (by never, i mean 99% of the time) be taken. Both of the other talent choices are far better options, though I prefer enraged regen as you can easily line it up with a berserker rage for a free 20% hp heal.

Bladestorm: Bladestorm as Protection...scary and yet interesting times. It hits for 240% weapon damage every 1 second for 6 seconds on a 1.5 minute cooldown. It's also a channeled ability. However because it’s channeled, outside of blocking, dodging, parrying or Shouting, you can’t do anything else unless move. Because of this, this also puts a temporary halt on your rage generation. Paired with a lengthy cooldown, its uses are very, very situational at best.


While you are correct on most of this, you can still use rallying cry, last stand, enraged regen, demoralizing shout (i suppose thats what you meant by shouting), and zerk rage. General consensus on this talent is it's only useful on extended aoe (even then, I like dragon's roar + blood bath more).

Mass Spell Reflect: Performs just like normal Spell Reflect, but on a much longer cooldown at 1 minute and it works on the entire raid as long as they're within 20 yards of your position. Nice if you're expecting a lot of magical burst and it can be reflected, but otherwise absolutely useless. Also works independent of your own personal Spell Reflect cooldown, which is handy.


you should mention that every player in the raid gets a spell reflect out of this, so on a fight like lei shi, I can cast mass spell reflect, let him hit my OT once, taunt, and it will reflect off me again, thus giving 2 reflects. multiple warriors in the raid can amount to multiple's of these occuring.

It should be mentioned that for Tier 5 talents, safeguard will provide the best overall raid mitigation of damage if used properly and even once a minute. Obviously if you can't reach the other tank, vigilance is probably better (I say probably because you taking 30% extra damage isn't always good). Safeguard can mitigate special attacks such as gara'jal's shadowy attack and provide extra dmg reducation after the mitigation.

Storm Bolt: A a 30 second cooldown, it's a semi powerful attack that grants you another stun, but also hits a truckload harder (300% weapon damage vs. 100% normally) when the target is incapable of being stunned. This maths out to be the lowest DPS option of the three, but if you're in a situation where you need another stun...this is the place to find it.


Note: Its 300% EXTRA weapon damage, so 400% total in current patch. Come live it will be 500% vs 125% IIRC.

Glyphs:
Incite: Probably would never go with this, heroic striking is pretty much out of the picture unless you are offtanking or get the proc for a free one, which makes this glyph blah.

Any fight where interupts are used frequently, or you can interupt frequently, Rude interuption will win out MOST of the time.

Fights with heavy adds, resonating power will win out MOST of the time due to freeing of GCD's for more revenge/shield slams.

Stats:

A safe stat priority should be:

Stamina > Hit 7.5% > Expertise 7.5% > Mastery > Parry = dodge (dodge and parry have the same DR value now, but parry has strength to boost its number)

You should never be gemming dodge or parry, you should gem hit and expertise before you gem them. Mastery is a better overal tanking stat than dodge and parry, and gemming hit and expertise can lead to reforging into mastery if need be.

Food and Flasks:

Once you reach an appropriate amount of stamina and are comfortable with it, strength flasks beat out stamina flasks on melee bosses hands down. Strength food is also better for mitigation and combines for more dps, but I prefer expertise food for more dps and rage.

Notes: Due to tanks pulling rather good dps nowadays, for progression raiding tank dps IS key on some fights. Hit > Expertise > Crit is the dps stat order you should follow. Strength is a very sub par dps stat when tanking heroic bosses. Crit only comes into play on full magic damage bosses, such as lei shi, where after you hit the expertise hard cap you go for crit.

In conclusion, I wish this guide would have been written by a more progression experienced warrior. This could be a beginner's guide to MoP warrior tanking with some of the fixes I listed above, but the guide doesn't go very in depth in my opinion, and is lacking what I would call "experience" when it comes to heroic raiding. Those tidbits you learn from heroic raiding are extremely useful for new players to pick up and learn along the way.
12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
No. This talent is good for 5 mans and MAYBE LFR and anything lower than that. Going into normal and heroic raiding, this talent is complete garbage


This ability (personally) hasn’t been too useful outside of soloing, 5mans and LFR, but it’s still a compelling option in the right situation.

?????

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
While you are correct on most of this, you can still use rallying cry, last stand, enraged regen, demoralizing shout (i suppose thats what you meant by shouting), and zerk rage. General consensus on this talent is it's only useful on extended aoe (even then, I like dragon's roar + blood bath more).


So a more wordy version of what he said, which seems rather pointless since, as you also said, you probably shouldn't be using it.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Note: Its 300% EXTRA weapon damage, so 400% total in current patch. Come live it will be 500% vs 125% IIRC.


Its still an awful talent for DPS.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Incite: Probably would never go with this, heroic striking is pretty much out of the picture unless you are offtanking or get the proc for a free one, which makes this glyph blah.


Except the point is it gives you 3/minute for free, and theres plenty of fights that don't pose a threat to the tank you can heroic strike on.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Any fight where interupts are used frequently, or you can interupt frequently, Rude interuption will win out MOST of the time.


Fights where you need interrupts for more than certain phases:

...Protectors, maybe? Save for heroic the interrupts are done by the time you get to the relevant part. And if you're doing heroic you should know this on your own by that point.

Stamina > Hit 7.5% > Expertise 7.5% > Mastery > Parry = dodge (dodge and parry have the same DR value now, but parry has strength to boost its number)

You should never be gemming dodge or parry, you should gem hit and expertise before you gem them. Mastery is a better overal tanking stat than dodge and parry, and gemming hit and expertise can lead to reforging into mastery if need be.


You mean like

Stamina > Hit 7.5% > Exp 15% > Mastery > Parry > Dodge

Once you reach an appropriate amount of stamina and are comfortable with it, strength flasks beat out stamina flasks on melee bosses hands down. Strength food is also better for mitigation and combines for more dps, but I prefer expertise food for more dps and rage.

Notes: Due to tanks pulling rather good dps nowadays, for progression raiding tank dps IS key on some fights


Once again, this is what the flask section said

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
In conclusion, I wish this guide would have been written by a more progression experienced warrior. This could be a beginner's guide to MoP warrior tanking with some of the fixes I listed above, but the guide doesn't go very in depth in my opinion, and is lacking what I would call "experience" when it comes to heroic raiding. Those tidbits you learn from heroic raiding are extremely useful for new players to pick up and learn along the way.


In conclusion, stop being petty and playing semantics trying to e-peen flex that you're more progressed than him. Contrary to what you seem to think, most "tidbits" in heroic raiding are only really useful in heroic raiding and will confuse new people.
Bump and sticky requested for a long-in-the-coming and well worth the wait guide. Just what I needed to ease myself back into the game. Prot spec tryout, here I come!
12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
No. This talent is good for 5 mans and MAYBE LFR and anything lower than that. Going into normal and heroic raiding, this talent is complete garbage. I have gone through entire encounters where it will heal me for less than 50k, when I could pop 1 enraged regen that will triple that healing done. Yes, it heals at the best possible time, but time spent from 35-0% on most fights is very little, healers don't like you sitting that low, and you risk being 1 shot at that point. This talent should almost never (by never, i mean 99% of the time) be taken. Both of the other talent choices are far better options, though I prefer enraged regen as you can easily line it up with a berserker rage for a free 20% hp heal.


Here, since apparently you're lacking in reading comprehension, I'll bold where we're both saying the same thing:

Second Wind: This talent is great. I love it. Hands down, probably our best (if not, definitely in the running) talent this tier. It's passive and activates automatically, and triggers at the point where it can either make the most difference, or do absolutely nothing perceivable due to you getting panic healed by your healers. This ability (personally) hasn’t been too useful outside of soloing, 5mans and LFR, but it’s still a compelling option in the right situation.


What part of "hasn't been too useful outside of soloing, 5mans and LFR" is "this talent is useful in normal and heroic raiding?" Seriously, I'd love to see where you're getting this from.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Last stand is a 3 minute CD, and only reduced to 2 minutes with the 2 piece tier bonus, which will probably be changed next tier like it always does.


Nice find; that's what happens when you flub your keyboard strokes and hit 2's where 3's should go.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Any fight where interupts are used frequently, or you can interupt frequently, Rude interuption will win out MOST of the time.


Since you're apparently more progressed than me, care to name some where it actually matters? I'd be more than happy to append that glyph's notes if you can give me a good reason to.

12/30/2012 06:02 AMPosted by Rickybobby
In conclusion, I wish this guide would have been written by a more progression experienced warrior. This could be a beginner's guide to MoP warrior tanking with some of the fixes I listed above, but the guide doesn't go very in depth in my opinion, and is lacking what I would call "experience" when it comes to heroic raiding. Those tidbits you learn from heroic raiding are extremely useful for new players to pick up and learn along the way.


Ah, I was waiting for somebody to try that.

Well, if you feel that way you probably should've written one, since you probably have so many tidbits of information being such a good raider and all :D
Rude Interruption is useful for Protectors and Wind Lord basically. Nothing else has enough interrupts to make it really all that useful. I suppose there is interrupting on the last two of the Spirit Kings for Shadow Blast and Crazy Thoughts (where applicable), but anything else with interrupts is so far and few between that it's not worth it for any other fight.
12/30/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Samayael
Rude Interruption is useful for Protectors and Wind Lord basically. Nothing else has enough interrupts to make it really all that useful. I suppose there is interrupting on the last two of the Spirit Kings for Shadow Blast and Crazy Thoughts (where applicable), but anything else with interrupts is so far and few between that it's not worth it for any other fight.


So basically the fights I already figured >_>;

Edits regarding Last Stand done.
Honestly even then probably only heroic windlord, since menders die first on normal
Here, since apparently you're lacking in reading comprehension, I'll bold where we're both saying the same thing:

Second Wind: This talent is great. I love it. Hands down, probably our best (if not, definitely in the running) talent this tier. It's passive and activates automatically, and triggers at the point where it can either make the most difference, or do absolutely nothing perceivable due to you getting panic healed by your healers. This ability (personally) hasn’t been too useful outside of soloing, 5mans and LFR, but it’s still a compelling option in the right situation.[/quote}


You name it the "best" talent in the tier, or at least in the running for the best talent in the tier, when for raiding it's not. It's not even competitive at a raiding level its actually complete garbage. My reading comprehension is fine.

[Quote]Posted by Rickybobby
Last stand is a 3 minute CD, and only reduced to 2 minutes with the 2 piece tier bonus, which will probably be changed next tier like it always does.


Nice find; that's what happens when you flub your keyboard strokes and hit 2's where 3's should go.


Or one of those neat tricks you learn to almost double your HP pool, I go from 599k unbuffed to 935k unbuffed.

Posted by Rickybobby
Incite: Probably would never go with this, heroic striking is pretty much out of the picture unless you are offtanking or get the proc for a free one, which makes this glyph blah.


Except the point is it gives you 3/minute for free, and theres plenty of fights that don't pose a threat to the tank you can heroic strike on.


If timed correctly you have to get 3 devastates in during a 8 second period, which could easily mean not using a revenge or shield slam on CD. If it just gave them to you for free, this glyph would be obvious, but it requires GCD's in a small amount of time. There are often better glyphs on most fights.

You mean like

Stamina > Hit 7.5% > Exp 15% > Mastery > Parry > Dodge


No, that's not what I meant at all actually.

12/30/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Ðemolition
In conclusion, stop being petty and playing semantics trying to e-peen flex that you're more progressed than him. Contrary to what you seem to think, most "tidbits" in heroic raiding are only really useful in heroic raiding and will confuse new people.


Pointing out mistakes(actual or percieved) on a GUIDE is what the community should be doing. If you expect your guide to be taken seriously, you shouldn't be complete tools to people critiquing it.

Ah, I was waiting for somebody to try that.

Well, if you feel that way you probably should've written one, since you probably have so many tidbits of information being such a good raider and all :D


Why would I do that when you already wrote one with most of the relevant information in it and I can just critique that?

P.S. rude interupt is best used on protectors heroic, or normal non elite, well any combo where you kill a caster last really. It's also good on Spirit kings as pointed out, but no not on Windlord as you want the glyph of resonating power so you have the most global's free to spam revenge and shield slam.

P.P.S. while being progressed isn't 100% necessary to writing a guide, it helps when you have some backbone in a real environment where you have tested the things you are saying. Not to mention most raiders have experience in all of the heroics and LFRs, and some even in challenge modes. You could also use that experience to help people with direct questions concerning most encounters at that point.
12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Or one of those neat tricks you learn to almost double your HP pool, I go from 599k unbuffed to 935k unbuffed.


Correcting a typo doesn't count as a neat trick you learned.

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
If timed correctly you have to get 3 devastates in during a 8 second period, which could easily mean not using a revenge or shield slam on CD. If it just gave them to you for free, this glyph would be obvious, but it requires GCD's in a small amount of time. There are often better glyphs on most fights.


No you don't.

One devastate gives you a 9s buff that reduces HS by 20 rage.

You can also dev again right before the 3rd free HS and get an extra 9s of 10 rage heroic strikes.

Congratulations, you've managed to kill 12 heroic bosses with no idea how one of your glyphs works.

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
No, that's not what I meant at all actually.


Well thats too bad, because suggesting 7.5 Exp is rather pointless, if you aren't going for full caps you may as well just go for the optimal mitigation/rage gen number that theck mathed out, which IIRC was about 9% combined hit/exp

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Pointing out mistakes(actual or percieved) on a GUIDE is what the community should be doing. If you expect your guide to be taken seriously, you shouldn't be complete tools to people critiquing it.


Ok, so return your own favor by not being complete tool and trying to lord progression over people when critiquing it.
12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Why would I do that when you already wrote one with most of the relevant information in it and I can just critique that?


Apparently either your sarcasm detectors are down or mine are. Either way I'd rather not clamor up the thread with more argumentative drivel, so I'll attempt to glean the information out of your posts and put them to use.

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
Pointing out mistakes(actual or percieved) on a GUIDE is what the community should be doing. If you expect your guide to be taken seriously, you shouldn't be complete tools to people critiquing it.


Critique doesn't necessarily have to be argumentative; which you basically painted a target on your forehead for doing the second you started yanking chains about how "a guide should have been written by somebody with more heroic experience." Demo just has absolutely zero filter about pretty much anything :P

Either way, I'd like to move on regarding this topic, as it's dead and done.

12/31/2012 12:14 AMPosted by Rickybobby
If timed correctly you have to get 3 devastates in during a 8 second period, which could easily mean not using a revenge or shield slam on CD. If it just gave them to you for free, this glyph would be obvious, but it requires GCD's in a small amount of time. There are often better glyphs on most fights.


It's literally costing you one GCD in Devastate, and then letting you use Heroic Strike thrice in succession for free. I'm failing to understand how this is a severely negative thing, so you'll have to explain it to me like I'm three years old :P

Either that or you're fundamentally misunderstanding how Glyph of Incite works.
I guess I am wrong about glyph of incite. See how that works? probably the worst single target glyph out of the 3 with heavy rep and HTL, and unless the fight only has 1 target and very light on movement, I still probably wouldn't use it over the current heroic leap glyph.

12/31/2012 12:48 AMPosted by Ðemolition
Well thats too bad, because suggesting 7.5 Exp is rather pointless, if you aren't going for full caps you may as well just go for the optimal mitigation/rage gen number that theck mathed out, which IIRC was about 9% combined hit/exp


You mean this? http://sacredduty.net/2012/09/10/l90-mitigation-stat-weights-for-warriors/

Which was posted sept 10th? And which was ALL theoretical? Let me put a quote in here for you

That said, Shield Block’s 2-charge mechanic and the ability to pool 120 rage mitigate this problem quite a bit. That might be enough control for a skilled warrior, making the sheer rating investment of hit- and expertise-cap unattractive for such a small benefit. And we have shown that it only takes about 9% total hit+expertise to reach the point where Shield Block is available as often as it can be. It wouldn’t surprise me if avoidance-stacking became the dominant gearing strategy for warriors even while the hit/exp/mastery/haste strategy becomes dominant for paladins.


This is the 9% you are talking about, which has absolutely no play experience with it. Ask most top end warrior tanks what they are doing, its generally dependent on the fight, but its almost never 9% hit and expertise combined. I would laugh at anyone going by that number, just as I would laugh at anyone stacking dodge/parry because its avoidance and rage generation in a roundabout way.

Suggesting 7.5 hit/exp is not "rather pointless" at all. This area gives you a nice stream of rage without losing mastery, and keeps your DPS at a competitive level.

I hate to "lord" my progression over you as you seem to think I am doing, but I have multiple top 10 ranks, and far more top 50 ranks on progression fights than you do demolition. Obviously I'm doing something right, and whether you like the way I was offering to help or not idgaf. This guide had mistakes in it, most of which have been ignored and you decided to harp on a terrible glyph, but whatever. Do what you want, your guide.
12/31/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Rickybobby
Suggesting 7.5 hit/exp is not "rather pointless" at all. This area gives you a nice stream of rage without losing mastery, and keeps your DPS at a competitive level.


Just for a point of reference, I did make a note saying basically the same thing underneath the first stat priority I listed (Though I suppose slightly more roundabout; where it lists 15% Exp, but I also say that realistically you won't be able to hit that with a "comfortable level of Mastery until further itemization becomes available").

12/31/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Rickybobby
I guess I am wrong about glyph of incite. See how that works? probably the worst single target glyph out of the 3 with heavy rep and HTL, and unless the fight only has 1 target and very light on movement, I still probably wouldn't use it over the current heroic leap glyph.


The current heroic leap glyph is VERY good, that's probably why you feel this way. Understandably so; I like having a 30 second Leap that does amazing damage too...I just have gotten more used to using Deadly Calm lately, so I'm loathe to give up Incite now. But that's the beauty of how the glyph system works; there isn't an empirical "Best Glyph for Every Situation" like there was before. :)

Also, I did look into Last Stand and Rallying Cry's synergies involving T14 2pc; which is more than a little funky and I'm thinking not intended. But whatever, made a note of it and put it up. Thanks for the heads up! (I've personally never thought to do this, as I've been pairing Rally with Demo Banner for Raid cd's on certain fights ((Blade Lord P2 to help our healers out, Elegon burn phase, ect)))

12/31/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Rickybobby
This is the 9% you are talking about, which has absolutely no play experience with it. Ask most top end warrior tanks what they are doing, its generally dependent on the fight, but its almost never 9% hit and expertise combined. I would laugh at anyone going by that number, just as I would laugh at anyone stacking dodge/parry because its avoidance and rage generation in a roundabout way.


It's at least got math backing it up; not to say I didn't find it flawed in its own ways, but it's backed up by repeated mathematical trials and simulations, so it's definitely not as worthless as you're making it seem to be.

Though, for point of reference, I don't personally see that as a number worth hitting, for similar reasons (there's a good reason I didn't suggest that as a method of gearing and reforging here). It was researched and developed in Beta, and we're not in Beta anymore. I'll probably go back to the Stat section and link that blog post though for more notes on avoidance if people care about reading them. In a similar vein, I should probably link Waniou's Diminishing Returns thread here too, as it serves for fairly good reading on the subject as well.

[e]: Also Ricky, I'm re-wording Second Wind's note a bit; I know what I'm trying to say there, but it's coming off very overly verbose and wishy-washy. I think we both agree that it's a great "non-threatening content" talent, but beyond that you're going to get more healing overall out of Enraged Regeneration, so I'll be sure to make that a little clearer.

See? Progress :D
I'm done here for the sake of not risking this topics status not being stickied or even deleted.
This helped a ton. TY!

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