DK Tanking Guide (5.4)

Death Knight
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02/03/2013 08:05 PMPosted by Tajit
They don't have anything that affects their dodge/parry chance, do they?
lower base strength
Keep in mind to there is only so much you should stress about balancing out your dodge and parry. I wouldn't over stress needing exact values but I wouldn't neglecting. I'd rather players just didn't neglect as a while. For example over stressing Parry or Dodge as a whole. This is all in reforges though. I don't really see an overall benefit of ever gem'ing dodge and the Parry/Mastery gems are used for reds because the only other option is expertise or strength.

edited to add.

p.s.

The macro is more to give you an in game tool to more fine tune your avoidance including strength values. It's not perfect either but it's better than flying blind. Another simple way sort of is to see how much Parry/Dodge Rating your gear has and just try to keep them in a closer range. No mater what the goal is to just not be losing a larger amount of avoidance that you could have prevented.
What are some macros that you use/recommend? Thanks for the great guide!
The only ones I use regularly are:

This one just makes it so you use 10 stacks of blood charge on one button push.
Blood Tap macro -
/cast Blood Tap
/cast Blood Tap

This one allows you to spam DC at your co-tank without changing targets (for use with Glyph of Death Coil)
Death Coil macro -
#showtooltip Death Coil
/target (insert the off tank here)
/cast Death Coil
/targetlasttarget

This just summons and sacs my ghoul in one button push.
Pet Sac macro -
#showtooltip Raise Dead
/cast raise dead
/cast death pact

well technically i use a macro that includes one line
/whisper Reniat .
which triggers a WeakAuras script that starts a countdown. But that doesn't really count :)

Here are some fight specific ones:

/tar (targe name here)

is always a good thing to have for stuff like celestial protectors on elegon or the add in day phase on tsulong, ect.

For protectors I use two macros:
This allows me to interrupt water bolt without changing my current target
/tar Elder Asani
/cast Mind Freeze
/targetlasttarget

and this allows me to use Dark Simulacrum on Regail's Lightning bolt without changing targets.
/tar Elder Regail
/cast Dark Simulacrum
/targetlasttarget
Thanks this helps a lot
I've seen people say Death Siphon is better than DS on Lei Shi.
Any thoughts?

I've downed her but it's always a struggle.
I feel like I have to blow a CD on every taunt. And then by ~20% I'm pretty much out of everything and I end up dead by the end of the fight. Typically our other tank ends up dead after that, and the fight is finished off with our 3rd (fog) tank holding the boss until the end.

I'm having most of my issues during Protects, where I try to put most of my CD's, and coming out of hide phases. We're kiting her back to the middle and it's virtually impossible to DS for 10~15 seconds after.
Honestly I haven't really noticed a difference between the two. It all comes down to your healers and your CD use. If you are dying while kiting back to the middle (so low stacks) then i'd be more interested in what your tank healers are doing at that time. That fight REQUIRES dedicated tank healers, and if they aren't on the ball then a tank will die.

that said, death siphon will do considerably more damage.
The only ones I use regularly are:

This one just makes it so you use 10 stacks of blood charge on one button push.
Blood Tap macro -
/cast Blood Tap
/cast Blood Tap

This one allows you to spam DC at your co-tank without changing targets (for use with Glyph of Death Coil)
Death Coil macro -
#showtooltip Death Coil
/target (insert the off tank here)
/cast Death Coil
/targetlasttarget

This just summons and sacs my ghoul in one button push.
Pet Sac macro -
#showtooltip Raise Dead
/cast raise dead
/cast death pact

well technically i use a macro that includes one line
/whisper Reniat .
which triggers a WeakAuras script that starts a countdown. But that doesn't really count :)

Here are some fight specific ones:

/tar (targe name here)

is always a good thing to have for stuff like celestial protectors on elegon or the add in day phase on tsulong, ect.

For protectors I use two macros:
This allows me to interrupt water bolt without changing my current target
/tar Elder Asani
/cast Mind Freeze
/targetlasttarget

and this allows me to use Dark Simulacrum on Regail's Lightning bolt without changing targets.
/tar Elder Regail
/cast Dark Simulacrum
/targetlasttarget


Why would you suggest these bulky macros which if can mess up by using them?

/cast [target=NAME] SPELL

Would work so much more effectively. No target swapping, no glitching, no bulk.
Or a mod macro this.
/cast [modifier:shift, target=focus] Death Grip; Death Grip

Also, i have not read the the 4 or so other pages but why would you want RM for an add heavy fight in a raid? You should have Gorefiend's Grasp. This way, you can grip everything to you so the Monk/Shaman/Hunter/Warrior/Warlock or any other DK in your group can AoE stun them together. If you have 2 of those 6 classes in your raid, all it does is put the stun on a DR.

Desecrated ground is pretty much useless unless there is a Mind Control mechanic you can neutralize.

There are other mechanics you can use it for, not just mind control.

And what are your thoughts of T15 with the 4P and Conversion?
Im not a macro expert. I'm sure the ones you gave would work just as well.

02/10/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Unwieldly
why would you want RM for an add heavy fight in a raid?

being able to stun on your own can be incredibly useful. Remorseless was pivotal in grand empress progression since the stun can easily prevent a tank death during the add phases. There are plenty of places for gorefiends however, like Tsulong day phase (placing any staggler adds in front of breath) or grouping the adds on the shield phase of H feng. TL;DR, both have use in raids. Use the one that will be most valuable for that particular fight.

02/10/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Unwieldly
There are other mechanics you can use it for, not just mind control.
True, but it still doesn't see any use this tier. If it worked on huddle (granted this doesn't apply to blood) for ph2 H sha then it would be different, but it doesn't. so it's not.

02/10/2013 03:12 AMPosted by Unwieldly
And what are your thoughts of T15 with the 4P and Conversion?
The 4pc itself is not bad. There isn't a lot of mastery on the tier pieces though, so there may be room to just stick with 2pc and go with better itemization. I haven't looked too close at the non-tier options yet to say either way for sure.

Conversion doesn't really have a place in progression tanking simply because it's too insignificant, regardless of the rune cost reduction and the 4pc. Numerically speaking it's fine. It gives x heals for y resources, and those numbers can work out nicely. However the fact that it gives those heals in such small ticks makes in not worth it. 3% per second is barely going to register on the healers radar, not to mention it leaves room for a lot of overheal.
Im not a macro expert. I'm sure the ones you gave would work just as well.

why would you want RM for an add heavy fight in a raid?

being able to stun on your own can be incredibly useful. Remorseless was pivotal in grand empress progression since the stun can easily prevent a tank death during the add phases. There are plenty of places for gorefiends however, like Tsulong day phase (placing any staggler adds in front of breath) or grouping the adds on the shield phase of H feng. TL;DR, both have use in raids. Use the one that will be most valuable for that particular fight.

There are other mechanics you can use it for, not just mind control.
True, but it still doesn't see any use this tier. If it worked on huddle (granted this doesn't apply to blood) for ph2 H sha then it would be different, but it doesn't. so it's not.

And what are your thoughts of T15 with the 4P and Conversion?
The 4pc itself is not bad. There isn't a lot of mastery on the tier pieces though, so there may be room to just stick with 2pc and go with better itemization. I haven't looked too close at the non-tier options yet to say either way for sure.

Conversion doesn't really have a place in progression tanking simply because it's too insignificant, regardless of the rune cost reduction and the 4pc. Numerically speaking it's fine. It gives x heals for y resources, and those numbers can work out nicely. However the fact that it gives those heals in such small ticks makes in not worth it. 3% per second is barely going to register on the healers radar, not to mention it leaves room for a lot of overheal.


True for the most part for conversion. Except i tested it in PTR and it was doing 1.5~2mil healing in 2minutes. I also toggled it on and off so there wouldn't be overhealing. I also could sustain it the entirety of the time i was tanking with little sacrifice to RP because i was full 80% of the time. I think there was a down time of 10 seconds in those 2 minutes where i could not keep it up.

Simple math- 700k~ HP DP 700/2 = 350k~ every 2 mins
700k~ HP Conversion 700,000*.03x = y
If Conversion was used for 17 seconds, it would out heal DP at the cost of 80 Runic Power.

P.S. I find it funny you say 3% wont register on healing meters yet you go for hit and expertise cap, but if 3% doesnt register on meters, why go for the caps?
02/10/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Unwieldly
I find it funny you say 3% wont register on healing meters yet you go for hit and expertise cap, but if 3% doesnt register on meters, why go for the caps?

DPS.

Conversion WILL do more healing than DP, simply because it has no CD. But it's not free, and doesn't tick for squat, and while it's active you cannot gain RP from SoB.

Why is the resource cost so bad? If you are using Conversion and not overhealing that means you are either taking heavy sustained damage or just spiked hard and are using conversion to get back up. In either of these situations, not only is 3% per second not going to help much, but you'll also want every resource you can get going into Death Strikes. 80 RP is enough to reliably proc RC, or give you 4 blood charges, with just 10 rp to go for 2 more. that's ~30%-60% of a death strike, which is MUCH more important if you are taking heavy damage than a measly 3% hp per second.

Even to match a Rune Tap's healing, you would have to have it activated for 4 seconds. If you're not topped off for 4 seconds in heavy damage, you either need to slap your healers awake or you are simply taking so much damage that you can't be topped off, which means you need every death strike you can get.
When are you ever topped off consistently in progression for a long time?
And again you are excluding the topic. With 4p, you get 15 RP every time you are hit with BS up. So every time you get hit, that is 9% free HP with conversion or 54% with all 6 hits. So if you get hit 6 times with 4set, you get 90 Runic power just from that, which give yous a RS without any runes. If you use all your runes, and excluding SoB, that is 60. So...60ish from runes. 60+90=150. Hence, you are now over capped with RP from non RNG procs. (also probably behind on global's too with the flooded RP.) Besides that, with 150, you can RS 3 times and have 60 RP over which is 12 seconds. Runes are up from atleast 1 of the 3 RNG procs with RC or full BT. Either way, with conversion going, you have enough RP to continue getting runes.

And of course this is every minute or if timed correctly with BS, about twice every time tank is swapped. So 180. Have fun trying to dump 6 RS while DSing or using other runes.

As for offset pieces, all pieces have hit or expertise on them except chest. So get the hit/mastery one. All set. Or legs with dodge/mastery if you want more avoidance.
02/10/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Unwieldly
And again you are excluding the topic. With 4p, you get 15 RP every time you are hit with BS up. So every time you get hit, that is 9% free HP with conversion or 54% with all 6 hits.
conversion is never "free" no matter where the RP comes from. You could and should use the RP from the 4pc for t75 procs if you are taking significant damage, not for conversion.
02/10/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Unwieldly
Have fun trying to dump 6 RS while DSing or using other runes.

It's not instant RP. at the VERY least it will take 10 seconds to lose all charges of bone shield. That's plenty of time to properly manage your runes/RP. Even if it was too much rp, we could just use BT and bank the RP in blood charges, meaning even if there was an RP surplus there would be better options than conversion.

It's not like I hate the idea of conversion. It's not even the fact that it costs RP. It could maintain the same heals/RP cost (.6% per RP) and be made viable simply by doing two things:

1) make it so SoB can still give RP while conversion is active.
2) make conversion heal more (and use RP more. keeping the same heals/RP).

If it were 12% per second, with a 20 RP per seconds cost it would be more viable. Death Pact would still probably be the "standard" choice, but conversion would definitely be more attractive with these changes. As it stands, it simply doesn't hold up in progression tanking.
I'm seeing a few tanks using Death Coil over Rune strike when getting higher vengeance. Is there a point in which Death Coil does out weigh Rune Strike, in terms of damage, for blood dks?
who have you seen doing this? Yes at a certain lvl of vengeance DC will do more damage than RS, but it's not enough to outwiegh the loss of rune throughput. DC procs t75 talents much less often simply due to its RP cost. this means you have less runes (which is less damage) and less RP gen, which means even fewer procs of t75....

There is an example of one DK using it and getting ranked #8 for 25H lei shi, but look at its dmg done per RP. the rune strike he used did about 120k, and his Death Coils hit for 157k. Now, ignoring the fact that you will have reduced t75 procs, 157k for 40 rp is 3.925k dmg per RP. 120k for 30 RP is 4k dmg per RP. So even before you factor in the reduced resource gen rate by using DC, you would still do more damage overall by using RS in even high vengeance scenarios like Lei Shi.

And before someone points out that he's ranked #8, he's the only one in the top 10 to do this. All the others (including #1-#7) use rune strike.

TL;DR, don't do it.
who have you seen doing this? Yes at a certain lvl of vengeance DC will do more damage than RS, but it's not enough to outwiegh the loss of rune throughput. DC procs t75 talents much less often simply due to its RP cost. this means you have less runes (which is less damage) and less RP gen, which means even fewer procs of t75....

There is an example of one DK using it and getting ranked #8 for 25H lei shi, but look at its dmg done per RP. the rune strike he used did about 120k, and his Death Coils hit for 157k. Now, ignoring the fact that you will have reduced t75 procs, 157k for 40 rp is 3.925k dmg per RP. 120k for 30 RP is 4k dmg per RP. So even before you factor in the reduced resource gen rate by using DC, you would still do more damage overall by using RS in even high vengeance scenarios like Lei Shi.

And before someone points out that he's ranked #8, he's the only one in the top 10 to do this. All the others (including #1-#7) use rune strike.

TL;DR, don't do it.


Alright thanks.
Thanks. Back after taking a tanking break at the end of WotLK and this clears up things from the icy viens advice. The rotation for blood sure has changed though.
Any tips for heroic Sha?
His normal attacks are breaking my Blood Shield (and then some) and Thrash seems to have a high chance of triggering my Purgatory. I ate an ~800k Thrash to the face last night and dropped immediately. At the moment I just have to hope I avoid an attack every now and then to roll blood shield.

Even the normal attacks are taking me sub-50%.
No matter how I try to DS there's just not enough runes in existance to mitigate the damage.

Aside from DS I don't feel like I have the tools to handle the damage. Vamp is useless if I'm being globaled. DRW has gotten me killed a few times from bad rng.

The only things I have are bone shield and IBF which are too small and too long of a cd.

At the moment I'm just DSing between attacks and hoping I can pool some runes/rp going into thrash.

I think I'll only be soaking debuffs in the 2nd phase, which is good, because I physically can't tank dread thrash.

I can't tell my healers to roll absorbs on me before thrashes, since they don't have to do that on our other tanks.

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