T15 Ret Bonuses

Paladin
Fix our heals please? lol but the damage buff seems nice but I doubt it will last long
01/10/2013 10:35 AMPosted by Brutalmaz
Fix our heals please? lol but the damage buff seems nice but I doubt it will last long


What?

This is PvE, not PvP.
01/10/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Dantekong
Fix our heals please? lol but the damage buff seems nice but I doubt it will last long


What?

This is PvE, not PvP.


Goes to show, they'll whine about PVP in every thread on here, even ones that have nothing to do with PVP

These bonuses are amazing
I think it's because you spend less time HoW'ing and more time CSing, as well as more TV's mixed in (around 2'ish over SW, off the top of my head). CS/TV alternating for 18 seconds, 1ish second GCD, 9 TV's, approximately 4 at 100%+ holy damage on average.

HOWEVER!

It gets complicated when you factor in that our 2 piece bonus only lasts for 6 seconds, keeping it up during HA (assuming you get the procs for it) will take away 1 to 3 chances for the 4 piece to kick in. We also lose both our CD reduction on wings (also pushing us towards HA) and our 15% straight up damage boost to TV (more than made up for by the 4 piece of t15, I *think*) by switching tiers.


In which world do you live in where your CS has a 2 second CD? I'd like to be there too.

I'd think that SW would favor the new 4pc more - you will get more CS-TV combos under SW than under normal wings. But I'll work on getting them implemented in SimC (probably not going to be simple, I'll have to figure out how to work the changing spell school on TV) over the weekend.

The t15 4pc will boost the dmg of each TV it affects by something like 86%. 1/.7(no longer affected by armor)*1.3(now affected by Inq). At a 40% chance off CS it'll affect roughly 40% of our TVs looking at my simc T14H profile #s. So avg 35% increase to TV dmg overall. Note that these #s may be skewed somewhat by current 4pc in the sim.

The t15 2pc will have roughly a 30% uptime based on that same SimC profile. 30% uptime of 6% more holy dmg (about 66% of the dmg for that profile) would be an increase of about 1% dmg. Kind of lackluster. Including the extra 4% holy dmg from TV conversions with 4pc only makes that go up to about 1.3%.

So, 4pc, good. 2pc, meh.


That's kind of disappointing, not looking forward to juggling my set around until I have enough t15 to make it worth breaking 4p t14. Maybe they could add an extra effect to the 2p reducing the cd of exo by a bit or increasing the chance for AoW to proc?
We can't just alternate CS-TV at any plausible amount of haste, though. We'd need a 2s CS to do that, which is well over 100% haste.

I'm not saying HA is going to be a BAD talent with t15 4p, I just don't see how the set bonus particularly favors it.


Does it really still take 50% haste to reduce the CS CD (and the global) by ~33% base? If so, I'll admit that I could well be wrong in my assumption.

Yeah, it still uses the 4.5/(1+haste) thing. And the CS cooldown is exactly 3 GCDs unless you get past 50% haste, too (with a 3.4s CS, you'd have a 1.13s GCD), which I'm not sure will be obtainable in t15, at least not outside procs or Bloodlust. So you're still going to have CS - TV - (one full GCD) - CS.
I would think that a 6% increase to at least part of the damage of every ability would equal out to more of a dps increase than 15% to one ability

6% holy damage affects all of our attacks.
If Balhale's napkin math up above is reasonably accurate, yeah, the 2p is similarly valuable to t14 2p, which is a decent bonus. A 6% increase sounds like not much, but it affects the majority of our damage, instead of just one attack.
Some napkin math:

Assuming that bosses have the same armor as they did in wrath, with full armor debuffs, they'll take 34.15% less physical damage (39.15% w/t).

Assume a T.V hits for 200k with 30% mastery + 30% inq it will total to 278k damage currently.

With 2 set piece set the same hit would be: 200k +60*1.3*1.06 =282.68k
With 4 set piece set the same hit would be:
200k+200k *(1-.3415)*1.3= 431.2k

Assuming both bonuses are up then:

T.V will hit for: 200k * 1.3415 * 1.06 = 284.4k (since it bypasses completely armor and its boosted from 2piece set bonus)
Mastery will hit for: 284.4k*0.3*1.06= 90.4k (30% of tv hit + 6% from 2 set)
Total hit will be: 284.4k*90.4k = 374.8k

Please point out errors, its still early and not enough caffeine in system to think properly.

A big question is if our mastery will be calculated before or after the tier set. ( i calculated by assuming is applied after). If it's before results will be completely different.

We are definitely in for some crazy burst but unfortunately some crazy RNG too. In fact the results in dps fights between two equally dressed and skilled rets will be completely different,

For sure mastery will be better than crit but not sure about haste.
Inq will most probably affect Holy-damage TVs too, so that's another factor of 1.3. Also remember that Mastery is itself boosted my Inq, so 30% mastery is really +39% of the base hit.

And ignoring 34.15% armor isn't +34.15% of the damage you already deal (it's +34.15% of your pre-mitigation damage, but since those aren't the numbers you actually see it's not terribly useful to model things that way). A 200k TV (278k when you include Mastery) would be 200/(1-.3415) = 303k just from ignoring armor, if your 34.15% figure is right. With Inq that's 395k, and then Mastery brings it up to 549k.

That's an absurdly huge number, but then, 200k TVs without including Mastery aren't super common either :p Granted I'm in "LFR Hero" gear, but my TV hits for something more like 50k outside procs/CDs, and the highest crit I've ever gotten is not far above 200k, other than gimmick fights. The ratio ("a 4p-proc TV hits almost twice as hard") should be true regardless of the starting value though.
You are absolutely right.
editing with new numbers

It is true, my highest crit in my current gear in feng hc for example is close to 160k (with 2 set bonus). I don't believe 200k t.v will be uncommon with next raid gear (before tier sets)
So the question is would it be worth breaking the 4-set t14 to move to

2-set T14 & 2-set T15? Or is 4 set t14 good enough to hold onto until you get 4-set T14?

I suppose the stat increases would tip it toward breaking t14 when you get two pieces of t15.
Inq will most probably affect Holy-damage TVs too, so that's another factor of 1.3. Also remember that Mastery is itself boosted my Inq, so 30% mastery is really +39% of the base hit.

And ignoring 34.15% armor isn't +34.15% of the damage you already deal (it's +34.15% of your pre-mitigation damage, but since those aren't the numbers you actually see it's not terribly useful to model things that way). A 200k TV (278k when you include Mastery) would be 200/(1-.3415) = 303k just from ignoring armor, if your 34.15% figure is right. With Inq that's 395k, and then Mastery brings it up to 549k.

That's an absurdly huge number, but then, 200k TVs without including Mastery aren't super common either :p Granted I'm in "LFR Hero" gear, but my TV hits for something more like 50k outside procs/CDs, and the highest crit I've ever gotten is not far above 200k, other than gimmick fights. The ratio ("a 4p-proc TV hits almost twice as hard") should be true regardless of the starting value though.


Can not reach to your numbers for some reason :

Hit after armor 200,000
Armor % 34.15%
Hit before armor 303,721

T.V no-tier

Hit after armor 200,000
Inquisition 30.00%
Mastery 30.00%
Total 278,000

T.V 2-tier set

Hit after armor 200,000
Inquisition 30.00%
Mastery 30.00%
2 set bonus 6.00%
Total 282,680

T.V 4-tier set

Hit before armor 303,721 All counts as holy damage
Inquisition 30.00%
Total Before Mastery 394,837

Mastery 30.00%
Inquisition 30.00%
Total Mastery 153,986

Total 4 set hit 548,823

Both set bonus hit
4 set hit 548,823
2 set bonus 6%
Total 581,752

Am i miss-calculating something?
Looks like we've got the same numbers; I didn't include the 2p bonus, so compare my 549k to your 4-piece-only numbers. 394837 TV + 153986 Mastery makes 548823, which is well within rounding error :)
So almost double.
I have a feeling that the armor value of the bosses has changed since wrath. I found a picture of a hunter inspecting galleon clocking him @ 24840 armor which doesn't seem high at all.
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=62346/galleon#comments

Anyone knows how much armor is 1%?
Armor provides linear gains of effective health, which means it's not linear in terms of percent mitigation. I don't know the formula anymore, but by removing some armor in-game, it appears that 24934 armor is 35.02% reduction. A 12% armor debuff would put Galleon at 21859 armor; my character sheet says 21866 armor is 32.1% damage reduction.

So the 34.15% figure may be off by a couple percent, but it's probably in the right ballpark? Anybody know for sure?
I think its roughly 35% which deflates the numbers above. So its around 23% after the 12% debuff.

source: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32803&start=225
Breaking t14 4set will probably t15 4set unless they nerf the t14 4set, especially if you have heroic set pieces.

Wish they would just make AW baseline 2 min again though. Not like we couldn't use the dps boost.

By the way, for some reason I thought that 2pc was a 40% proc also. /facepalm. Revised the numbers in my post - 2pc is now a 2.5-3% boost, much more competitive.
01/10/2013 02:57 PMPosted by Balhale
Revised the numbers in my post - 2pc is now a 2.5-3% boost, much more competitive.


That % sounds strange. Will it change when 4 set comes into play?

Also, assuming we continue the haste strategy, mastery will be a clear winner over crit right? (Atm sim points crit being slightly better for my gear at least.)
01/10/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Klotho
Revised the numbers in my post - 2pc is now a 2.5-3% boost, much more competitive.


That % sounds strange. Will it change when 4 set comes into play?

Also, assuming we continue the haste strategy, mastery will be a clear winner over crit right? (Atm sim points crit being slightly better for my gear at least.)


Why does it sound strange? The 3% end is the effect of the 4set from napkin math.

Too early to say what stat priority will be.

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