Ret Hybrid Tax Still Exists ?

Seems as though Ret has a hybrid tax in comparison of warrior an death knight damage.

Granted It could be just me but seems as though there damage is not even on par to frost death knights an fury warriors.
It definatly exisits untill you have top of the line gear.
Thank you for the reply now are you saying ret is on par to a frost death knight or fury warrior's in equal level gear?

From personal experience i normal never see Ret close to the top when i due raid which is why i am asking.
Please dont pay attention to frelikk

We're not penalized by a 'hybrid' tax.
We're not penalized by a hybrid tax. Biggest discrepancy is in gearing - Frost and Fury stack stats that directly increase their damage, Ret stacks a stat that does so indirectly. You've either seen really good Frosts/Furies, or just the multitude of really bad Rets.
Paladinchaz have you noticed the same as i am seeing in raids or do you not raid?

Frost death knights an fury warriors are normal topping the damage charts an ret seems to be much lower granted it could be badly played paladins.

I am also not speaking of just one group of peolpe but a common theme.
Grôgnárd would you say that the final scaling with gear is on par even though there scaled differently?
Ret scales differently than them. Officially, the hybrid tax does not exist. Look at shadow priests.

Some (ok, most) of the healing-capable hybrids aren't near the top of potential damage, but that's not because of hybrid tax, just Blizzard's "20% is close enough" outlook at the delta on dps specs.
01/11/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Strwberry
Paladinchaz have you noticed the same as i am seeing in raids or do you not raid?

Havent seen it in my raid unless the fight is bad for the spec in general.
What Chaz, Gro and Cayse all said.

And there are a lot of bad Paladins out there, a lot. Probably because we have such a large class population.

If you have a Ret yourself that you're having trouble with post on it and people would be glad to help.
I should mention that while my guild may not be overly far in raiding at all (not to say we don't down bosses [Read guild name, we're better post nerf =D]), I do pull near the top dps every time. Usually only beaten by a rogue in our guild raids.
Thank you all for taking the time to respond an the feed back received it is greatly appreciated.
01/11/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Strwberry
Grôgnárd would you say that the final scaling with gear is on par even though there scaled differently?

Assuming equivalent level gear and skill, they should be. In current tier, it's really hard to determine because plate seems to be inundated with crit, mostly inflating Warrior damage; and it also seems like there's more mastery than haste, netting the DKs more damage.

For my part, it seems to take a really good player of either other spec discussed in this thread to really match me - or just a player of one of those specs in much better gear. caveat, though: last week I ended up in a mostly pre-made LFR HoF, including a normal/heroic geared Frost; he beat me on the meters only on Mel'jarak. Their Boomkin was a real beast, though. LOL
01/11/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Their Boomkin was a real beast, though. LOL

Our guild's boomkin scares me sometimes with how much dps she can hold. O.o
Our guild's feral hit's harder than anything else...wth... Scares me too...
Our guild's Resto druid is apparently doing fine on the meters (and is getting buffed in 5.2 i've heard?) Should be able to down some more content then...

Point is, droods scare me bad D=
I wouldn't want to do as much damage as a Warrior or DK. Seems wrong. I WOULD, however, feel right about outlasting them under the pressure of an organized assault.

As a Ret in PvP, you are heavily dependent on your long cooldowns to be competitive when going on the attack. If that's the case, and we're comfortable with that being the case, then we must at last survive long enough to get that opportunity.
It exists for Ret in PVP no matter what gear you get. Specifically compared to warrior and Dk's as u mentioned, any player in equal gear will get better results than a ret paladin while doing HALF the work.

But this looks like a PVE thread, so.....

*makes way to exit*
As far as PvE is concerned, SMF in MOST cases will always beat a Ret in pure damage output, I'd say it is pretty on par with Frost Dks though, still a bit lower than them on some fights for obvious reasons - but nothing too drastic.

Some players think we are actually a lot lower realistically than what we are because of simcraft data. I think Boomkins get a reallly bad rap for this, but they are pretty good if the skill is there.

If you view log reports, we are perfectly fine, although it isn't that great as other classes at lower gear levels.

Overall, Ill stick by my original statement. Ret paladins will do less than SMF warriors of equal gear, probably even TG - and they will do SLIGHTLY less than Frost DKs

Compared to everything? Middle of the pack.

Not everything is going to be balanced, it's just the way it is, and it's silly for people to think that the hybrid tax still exists because Rets aren't doing as much as something like an SMF warrior atm.
Even looking at warrior rankings, their dps can be severely inflated if they are in execute phase for a much longer duration than what they should be, this is especially true for SMF.
01/13/2013 02:20 AMPosted by Covahredro
What was the amount gain for original hybrid tax..%?, well if rets dps isn't within the that % of the top dps classes then I'd say the tax is live and well.


But there are both pures and hybrids further than 5% from the top, currently. That's not an intentional tax on a spec, it's just Blizzard being terrible at balancing as usual (or, if I'm feeling more generous, it's just that balancing every spec to perform within a few percentage points at every level of gear is *really* hard, just as it has always been).

Looking at that image of SimulationCraft numbers, it's pretty easy to see that there's still a hybrid tax--whether by accident or design. 1H Windwalker Monks and Enhancement Shaman being the only outliers, every other DPS spec from a hybrid class is in the bottom 50% of DPS potential. It seems like we're being hamstrung by our perceived "utility".

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