Healing priest- 5.2's joke to Priests

Priest
Holy is fine. Holy is the second strongest healing spec. It just happens to be on the same class as the strongest healing spec. That's what "sample bias" means - good Priests are playing Disc because it's the best, not because Holy is crippled and unplayable.

Anyway, this isn't the end of the world. What I want to know is why the Rapture change looks like this

Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses.


Which of these numbers is correct? Before the actual patch notes landed they stated the intent was to go to 250% baseline Rapture.

EDIT:

But disc can't be a competetive raid healer without da-poh, we'd be good for every ss cd and then back to single target.


Not being the best AOE healer by far does not mean Disc will be totally unable to AOE heal.
01/16/2013 09:38 PMPosted by Elethia
I think you're exaggerating the effects, Sotanaht. PoH crits a ton, especially if you're using Inner Focus regularly. Looking at a few of my logs, I'm seeing a trend of ~40-60% crit on PoH. That means I won't be losing anywhere near 25% of my healing.


...? How many PoH are you using to get number like that? 10-12? Your crit buffed should be in the 20% range, you need to cast very few PoH to get that high of crits% using inner focus.

But yeah none of this is a surprise, we probably all knew it was gonna come the moment we saw the 30->50% DA buff. Hey at least we got to enjoy being useful for awhile, and some class have it worse than us, at least we can jump ship to holy : ) , oh whats that holy isn't doing so well too, well f***. I'm guessing resto druid are gonna be the next overbuff (with mistweaver in 5.3) we can start leveling alts now!
01/16/2013 09:51 PMPosted by Meit
But yeah none of this is a surprise, we probably all knew it was gonna come the moment we saw the 30->50% DA buff. Hey at least we got to enjoy being useful for awhile, and some class have it worse than us, at least we can jump ship to holy : ) , oh whats that holy isn't doing so well too, well f***. I'm guessing resto druid are gonna be the next overbuff (with mistweaver in 5.3) we can start leveling alts now!


What a terrible, worthless post.
01/16/2013 09:38 PMPosted by Elethia
I think you're exaggerating the effects, Sotanaht. PoH crits a ton, especially if you're using Inner Focus regularly. Looking at a few of my logs, I'm seeing a trend of ~40-60% crit on PoH. That means I won't be losing anywhere near 25% of my healing.

Looking over my logs from tonight's raid, I managed...~30% crit chance, tops on PoH. I'm genuinely interested how you're managing 60% with less crit rating and I assume more frequent PoH usage since you're doing heroics. PoH's crit chance would go up the less often you use it (thanks to Inner Focus).
Instead of blanket spamming PoH any time your mana can support it, you will just blanket spam PoH (in conjunction with SS if you can) during periods of raid damage. Or in other words, how PoH had always worked prior to the automatic DA.
PoH will still be very useful in combination with Inner Focus and Spirit Shell. The fact is the current form is just too powerful. Blame Spirit Shell for breaking the old talent of PoH always granting DA.

I think the better choice would have been making Spirit Shell only provide a shield from Heal, Greater Heal and Flash Heal. That would make PoH the spell to shield the raid and Spirit Shell the choice when one or a few will take a large hit.
This is the byproduct of an overzealous community beckoning for nerfs that exist, but exist in a way that doesn't warrant such nerfs. Having an unpredictable mechanic for our mitigation has not even existed for years, so with spirit shell having a minimum scaling from crit (on the offchance the prayer crits during shell and no mastery) what exactly is going on?

This is the fault of all of you. Every one of you beckoning for nerfs are simply selfish healers who cannibalize the healing of your teammates. You are so caught up with being op and relishing in the fact that your absorbs alone can make mechanics a joke that you are not aware to not overdo it. Thanks to this vocal community overdoing everything, we are going to take a ridiculous nerf. DO SOME !@#$%^- DAMAGE INSTEAD

Let me ask this: 25m healing has always been a byproduct of spamming prayers as a result of not having other equivalent spells to use. 25m healing has never been about triage and utilization of tools, but efficiency. Why does blizzard look at these prayer spamming logs as a proper representation of how priests play in general? Why isn't rapture not taking into account of temp spirit buffs sufficient to solve the issue? People spam prayers because they have the mana to do it.

Now spirit shell is unlikely to get capped in its active duration from prayers even with an archangel and we get tools for triage as a result. We can't even deal with aoe damage auras like heroic Will/heroic tsulong/heroic empress properly relying on UPFRONT healing of poh (do you guys even know how weak it is without aegis?) Are you telling me the way to keep raid health relatively high is to expend my mana OVERHEALING? How absurd for a disc priest

I cannot possibly penance or shield my way through sustained damage. So whats the motivation to ever cast prayer as disc? If you heal with hot based classes, you're in for a bad time. What is 20% penance going to do? heal the raid? Dude even your raid healers would appreciate the well being of raid health than everyone's assessments of your HPS. Stop basing balance around the !@#$%^- meters and suggest tools to make us more efficient in what we do.

Lastly: everyone who demonize disc for being actually amazing for one tier and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. What happened to druids being dominant for an entire expansion, and paladins a necessity for high end progression healing niche fights like H Baleroc, H Dreamwalker, even H Tsulong? Eternal flame making it borderline faceroll to deal with sustained damage from Garalon from ONE SINGLE PALLY?

You people are taking everything out of context and the people who seem to opine the most about 'balance' is the people overgearing the earlier content like 1-4 HMSV. I hope you guys are happy now that we are handed tools that are not needed and the tools that defines us are burned to the !@#$%^- ground. We are damn strong, but for the right reasons. Holy isn't competitive at al.

It doesn't take any knowledge of math to know that the way 5.2 is looking, disc will be actually BROKEN in PVE with borderline nil mastery scaling, RNG efficiency from crit, and shield spamming. Takes me back to ICC healing where disc isn't fun at all or the rather recent 5.0 debacle where disc just sucks *!@ period.

heartfelt thanks to everyone who pad and abuse absorbs and take away the efficiency of people who responsibly uses absorbs and use their remaining time pumping millions of damage worth on progression bosses where everything counts.

BTW looks like rogues are having a Power Word: Smoke Bomb in their repertoire. wtf is disc anymore?
~24% of my poh on our 25m heroic ambershaper kill tonight were crits and I never got shaped. (10.62% crit chance unbuffed)

DA is 34% of my healing
SS is 28% (amberscalpel and fling didn't like my SS)
PW:S was 9.6%
and then finally PoH was 8.2% of my healing done.

So with these changes DA will have procced 73 times from poh crits. I had 218 DA because of the guarenteed DA.

if we take the average DA shield (about 55k buffed for me) and use that number to determine how much absorbs I would do with only 73 poh crits, it would be 4,015,000 in absorbs. in actuality i did 12,109,386 with DA. That would more or less(because of DA off of penance and such) cut my DA absorbs by almost 3 times what it is currently. 3 times!!!!

Subtracting that healing from my overall healing It doesn't seem too bad at first look because I'd still be top heals at 27mil (well assuming my other healers stayed where they are, but in actuallity because I would be lower numbers theirs would increase) but then we have the ss nerfs (yay SS nerfs!!) which is my other top heal.

Now the question is how much would SS nerfs affect the overall ss numbers? If i lost about 6 million off of ss i would be at the bottom of the healing list before the buffs to other healers.

I'm not sure if thats how it will play out but thats just a quick look at where nerfs could take us using my last kill as an example.
I think you're exaggerating the effects, Sotanaht. PoH crits a ton, especially if you're using Inner Focus regularly. Looking at a few of my logs, I'm seeing a trend of ~40-60% crit on PoH. That means I won't be losing anywhere near 25% of my healing.


Elethia, looking over your latest logs I can see the following with regard to PoH crits:

Garalon: 88/256 = 34.4%
Wind lord: 24/34 = 70.5%
Amber shaper: 39/121 = 32%
Grand Empress: 40/170 = 23.5%

Looking at those number (please correct me if I made a mistake) I'm going to conclude that without the automatic aegis provided by PoH, preemptively stacking the aegis might be a bit risky in terms of mana and lost throughput if you don't crit. Given such a circumstance, I'd rather wait for damage to occur and react with PoH rather than preempt the damage with this significant change. This of course is outside the situation when SS is available to me, in which case given the PTR changes, the only annoyance to me will be it will take more casts of PoH to blanket the raid than on live.

I fully understand that Disc needed nerfs and a reduction to throughput, but the aegis change is one which I am quite leery of since it will alter Disc play style imo (during periods when SS is not available) from a preemptive healing style to a reactive healing style, which imo goes against the very nature of the spec.

I think a much more logical response from the dev team would have been to reduce/change rapture so as to limit Disc priest mana longevity (which has been done) and reduce aegis to a level that still granted a benefit, however one that was not as egregious as on live.

Balancing that out with an increase to penance to increase it's value would have went a long way to discouraging heavy PoH usage while not entirely drastically changing the very nature of Disc priests.

My only other sentiment is to wonder how and why we have arrived at this place in time as a spec. Did the development team not foresee the huge increase to throughput when the spec was buffed in the last patch. Going from irrelevance > healing God > ? in the span of several months is terrible design philosophy and what really needs to stop.

I'm sure we will all survive and who knows what else there is in store; I just hope people thoroughly test these changes on the PTR and the dev team can have the time to really evaluate the ramifications of these changes prior to 5.2. Given the example of what happened to Monk healers, which were head and shoulders ahead of all others with regard to throughput at the beginning of this expansion, my hopes are not too high for moderation.

~M
Would that change any if you swapped to crit as your main secondary stat, given the factors reducing the quality of mastery?

01/16/2013 10:23 PMPosted by Methuzla
I fully understand that Disc needed nerfs and a reduction to throughput, but the aegis change is one which I am quite leery of since it will alter Disc play style imo (during periods when SS is not available) from a preemptive healing style to a reactive healing style, which imo goes against the very nature of the spec.


Preshielding the entire raid constantly was only a thing when Disc was broken. Disc will still have preshielding tools, just not one where you spam your largest throughput AOE heal even when the raid is taking no damage.
Looking over my logs from tonight's raid, I managed...~30% crit chance, tops on PoH. I'm genuinely interested how you're managing 60% with less crit rating and I assume more frequent PoH usage since you're doing heroics. PoH's crit chance would go up the less often you use it (thanks to Inner Focus).


I'm a herp and a derp. I was looking at the wrong number. That said, I'm seeing ~26% crit on PoH on what is probably its biggest fight (Garalon: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/m8gw5pazo9i5s5ze/details/6/?s=5110&e=5526).

Let's make that an even 25%. On Garalon, that means my DA goes from 12,755,111 to 3,188,778. That puts my overall at 41,310,651, below our Monk and above our other Disc Priest. So I shift from 1st to 2nd on the meters.

For the meter chasers out there, that's not terrible.

Elethia, looking over your latest logs I can see the following with regard to PoH crits:

Garalon: 88/256 = 34.4%
Wind lord: 24/34 = 70.5%
Amber shaper: 39/121 = 32%
Grand Empress: 40/170 = 23.5%


You actually have to add the hits and crits, then divide. (If you look at WoL, you see three numbers: Hits, Crits and Direct Heals. Direct Heals is the combination of Hits and Crits, and is the overall number. So: 88/344 = 25.6%.

We won't be able to adequately layer DA, but I'm not sure Blizzard has wanted us to do that anyway.

01/16/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Niia
I'm well aware of what a sample bias is. It simply isn't relevant when you're using median totals for overall hps, unless this data is collected in a way that isn't transparent to the user. The condescension is unnecessary and doesn't make your argument any stronger.


I wasn't being condescending. Sorry if you read it that way. If you refer to my previous post, I've already said that you're not going to have a fair sampling of Holy Priests. Many, possibly most, of the best priests are running Disc for the majority of fights. Those who aren't are either stubbornly sticking to Holy and are in a position where that's possible, or are filling a very specific role for their raid.

Either way, the median shows us second to last when looking only at the top 100 (which is a really tiny sample size) and firmly in third when looking at the overall. If you swap it from Spec Score to DPS, we're sitting in second place on the overall and again second to last in the top 100.

Indeed, if you tweak the controls, you'll see us anywhere from second to dead last, depending on the raid size, data set and summary setting.

Rapture will still be a 12 second cool down so every 12 seconds I have a PW:S 1/2 off of mana price. Is that 1 shield 1/2 off until the next rapture cool down? So how does that make up for 250% return for mana? You took away the temporary spirit buffs from our rapture--now this? Interesting This is a big nerf - might I suggest to lower the mana cost of PW:S by 8% to 12% over all and keeping the 1/2 off when rapture is up if your are going to only give us 100% back from rapture? That would put our mana regen on par with the other healers according to math with the current encounters we have.


For clarification, this change to Rapture would mean that PW:S costs 50% on every cast. (Compare the wording in the PTR with the live version.) Right now, it costs 18,300; this change to Rapture would put it at 9,150 per cast (every cast). The official PTR notes put it at 150% spirit return on mana. With my current spirit level, assuming no spirit food/flask, I'd get 12,552 mana back from Rapture every 12 sec, as opposed to the current net loss on mana. (This is, of course, not including spirit procs effecting Rapture returns, as they do now.)

I'm not sure this would do as much as they're hoping it will, but it's at least nice to think that I'll be gaining mana from casting at least one every twelve seconds. In addition, needing to cast an extra one (non-Rapture) every now and then won't be as much of a burden as it is currently.
My only other sentiment is to wonder how and why we have arrived at this place in time as a spec. Did the development team not foresee the huge increase to throughput when the spec was buffed in the last patch. Going from irrelevance > healing God > ? in the span of several months is terrible design philosophy and what really needs to stop.


This is my problem. The results of these changes are obvious for anyone with eyes to see, and the patterns are obvious to anyone who's been here for more than one expansion. I can no longer conclude cockup before conspiracy at this point, it's just too much too blatantly.
01/16/2013 10:34 PMPosted by Sotanaht
This is my problem. The results of these changes are obvious for anyone with eyes to see, and the patterns are obvious to anyone who's been here for more than one expansion. I can no longer conclude cockup before conspiracy at this point, it's just too much too blatantly.


You're delusional.
Holy is absolutely acceptable currently, Niia. The fact is, no healer competes with Disc except on a very few encounters (ie: Tsulong). The nerfs aren't that bad. They don't affect our reactive healing, and should bring our preventative healing down to an acceptable level. The Rapture change is the final of many iterations thus far, and should make Rapture a more interesting mechanic.

Fact is, if you're having to babysit your mana as Disc, you're either trying to micro-manage way too much or you're really bad at using PW:Shield.


This, what's wrong with holy? If anything I've been finding it very strong lately. Obviously prenerf disc is better but holy is very viable.

What I don't like about this + the SS change (which yeah, did have to happen - SS being a 50+% healing buff on a short timer?) is that it seems to make the disc mastery basically worthless on everything but PW:S again. That and occasional aegis shields off PoH probably won't be very useful outside of damage aura fights (particularly compared to it just straight up healing for 40+% more as holy), but hey.
Preshielding the entire raid constantly was only a thing when Disc was broken. Disc will still have preshielding tools, just not one where you spam your largest throughput AOE heal even when the raid is taking no damage.


Well my point is that outside of PW:Shield spam while SS is on CD, pre-shielding for any considerable raid hit will probably not be feasible with these changes. Now that might be the design philosophy behind these changes and the devs want us to use Cascade, PoH, Halo, etc. in a reactive mode when SS is on CD, my only concern is that in an environment where significant throughput is necessary (e.g. Hard Modes while 2-healing) will Disc 5.2 be able to meet that challenge? If the answer is yes than that is totally fine and so is the spec, if it is not then there is a problem.

Secondly, what will this do to priests coming up, I remember shortly after release switching to holy to clear heroics simply because Disc did not have the tools to push throughput. Now that period was short lived and we definitely grew past that point to where we are now, my only concern is that these changes will be too punitive.

Time will tell.

And thanks Elethia for the clarification on the PoH numbers.

~M
This is my problem. The results of these changes are obvious for anyone with eyes to see, and the patterns are obvious to anyone who's been here for more than one expansion. I can no longer conclude cockup before conspiracy at this point, it's just too much too blatantly.


You're delusional.


What, you don't think anyone could see the DA buff coupled with the rapture buff would be way too much? You don't see how obvious it is these nerfs are going to be way too much to try to counter it (nerfing both sides by more and then more nerfs on top?) You haven't seen this happen in the past, like the PWS buff that was practically undone by a mana cost increase within a week, and then further devastated by the duration nerf, even though EVERYONE said it would be too much while it stayed on the PTR unchanged for months?

They do this every single time. Surgery with a shotgun. They take out every single possible offender whether they are buffing or nerfing, when taking out only one would brake the synergy and fix the problem. It happens so often and with such blatant disregard for the obvious that I have to assume it's what they intend all along. The only other possibility is that they literally aren't paying any attention. WHY they would intend to overbuff and overnerf is a fair question.
I'm a bit confused with Blizzard's direction for Disc priests. Are we healers that heal damage AFTER the fact or are we healers that mitigate the damage BEFORE a strike? Please have clear goals for the disc priest.

This. I have this question as well. I also liked what you said about us becoming an "RNG healer." It's maybe slightly exaggerated but it also has a grain of truth.

@ Priests in this thread saying Holy is in a better spot than other healers, I disagree. The mana problems become much, much more glaring for the spec as fights ramp up in difficulty and HPS required (this may sound obvious, but it's a pretty good metric imo.) Holy just does not have the mana longevity for many progression fights. I can state this from experience. Holy is perhaps in a better spot than RDruid, but that's about it.
Disc priest by design has always been damage mitigation by a clever choice of spell usage based on circumstances of given raid encounter. Spirit shelling the raid in anticipation of high end raid damage is not a far cry from that design. As a matter of fact, that is the thing we needed most in absence of divine hymn (while good serves no synergy with our design).

Why are we being pushed to heal the damage we are designed to prevent? Everything in our arsenal is meant to prevent it. The issue with over-using prayers does not exist in a 10m situation outside of imminent raid burst, so why are 10m healers like us who are arguably more responsible with spells as a result of triage taking the full blunt of a nerf that is not meant for us?

If external mana sources does not affect rapture, 25m healers would not have the means to endlessly roll prayers. I dont feel that a nerf of this extent is just for 10m disc priests at all. I do think RNG healer is an appropriate description of what we are headed. None of the control and utility we are used to will persist in 5.2 if proposed patch actually does go live.

I agree with Synariel, holy priest's worth to a raid is only above a resto druid. Holy relies heavily on mana and hardcasts that any fight with mobility or raw hps we will be highly ineffective. It is possible to deliver the hps required, but mana will not sustain, especially taking into account that the solace changes isn't looking promising in regards to rectifying this area of priest play.
In other news, if you go on the ptr you can see that (with enough spirit) pw:Shield spam is perfectly viable.

use solace on cd and just PW:S your way to victory. use penance one in a while to proc your spirit procs from tirnkets and cloak + the 12 sec rapture. and if you're ever low on mana just smite a bit or use s.fiend+hymn of hope. good game

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum