Countdown queues are the problem

Battlegrounds
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01/16/2013 12:49 AMPosted by Aurellian
However, no one has posted one good reason WHY count down Q's are bad


This guy did...

12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?


I’ll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

Addons aren’t really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.


And went on to say later...

12/04/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Pre-mades in the normal queue, however they are formed, are not something that we've ever been particularly fond of. It had become more of an issue of late, so we addressed it accordingly.
I find it funny how he doesn't give a crap about greifing someone for 5 hours straight on a PvP server, but premades are a no-no.

I'm so confused anymore.
I find it funny how he doesn't give a crap about greifing someone for 5 hours straight on a PvP server, but premades are a no-no.

I'm so confused anymore.

Why are you confused? This is just confirmation bias. You ignore the fact that the person rolled on a pvp server, knowing full well what would happen.
01/16/2013 01:55 AMPosted by Aurellian
How do you feel about that particular comment Warglaive?


I feel like it is very clear that it is not intended and any form of circumventing that intention is against... what.

I dont know what. But it's not intended, and therefore i wont be doing it.

They stopped the automation because it had reached a level they were apparently unsatisfied with. If using countdowns accomplishes the same end to the same degree, then they will likely eventually do something similarly to counteract that. So the people that are bothered enough by it should keep complaining.

It is not intended.

They are also well within their rights to complain about it. AND in reality it is their responsibility to.

But for me it's enough to simply know I'm not supposed to. I dont need to make up excuses to roll randoms.
Even implied rules are still rules and following them is easy for that simple reason. And it's not entirely fair.

But until they actually do something about it people will continue to pretend it's "OK". They always do.

I'm not very broken up about it either way. Because Blizzard - as usual - refuses to take a stand.
They do feed a lot of hooey, I completely agree.

But you know what?

12/04/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Daxxarri
You've made the assumption that all those things were accomplished expressly so that you could queue into battlegrounds as an organized group against disorganized opponents? That assumption is mistaken. If you want organized PvP against organized opponents, as you claim, that experience is readily available.


He's pretty specific on the issue and most everything inolved. On everything but the consequence to do it -

Which is nothing.

So until there is a consequence people bothered by it should complain. It's very clear they dont "like" players doing it any more than the people complaining about it being done. But until they stop it people will do it.

So people should complain. I guess. Like i said tho, i'm not really broken up by it. Personally. Not yet...
01/16/2013 02:08 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
Why are you confused? This is just confirmation bias. You ignore the fact that the person rolled on a pvp server, knowing full well what would happen.
Do you even know what confirmation bias means? The point being that Daxxarri encourages griefing people on PvP servers ("let the blood flow" comment) but is against premades. It sounds like a mixed message, as some level 80 questing and getting griefed by a level 90 is just as frustrating to that player as someone surrounded by retards in his group that is being stomped by an organzed group.

Who says the opponents are going to be disorganized?

Who says they are going to be less geared?
The best matches are premade vs premade and they happen more often than the whiners want to admit (in their mind it's all about pug stomping, which it isn't).

As for people quoting Daxxarri I find that to be very amusing, particularly given the fact that he made some statements that are just untrue. Daxxarri is a human being & puts his pants on the same way as the rest of us... what he says is not gospel and not the truth (it is an opinion). It is so blatantly hypocritical for these players to incessantly whine & pretty much call Blizzard a bunch of retards but cling to one statement that one of their employees made like it is the missing 11th commandment.
Ok just another point of conversation then.

You've made the assumption that all those things were accomplished expressly so that you could queue into battlegrounds as an organized group against disorganized opponents?


Who says the opponents are going to be disorganized?

Who says they are going to be less geared?

Who says they are not running a 5 man and another 3 man that got into the same groups Q and they are going to be highly organized and very well geared?

And who says that's going to happen every single time? It doesn't. I believe that's why it's considered... random?

What you are doing is REMOVING the random and reaping the "random" reward. Not intended.

Blizzard says? Sorry, I don't believe them. I see plenty of 5 + Alliance groups these days. I see plenty of uber geared 5 man teams.

Who says PvP should be disorganized teams against disorganized teams and nothing else?

No one. But they DO say the maximum that can queue together and be grouped together is 5.

Blizzard says that's how the CTA's and Random BG Q's should be?

Apparently.

Why is my question. I see no good reason for it. I would prefer - and I am absolutely speaking my opinion - that it were all organized groups against organized groups. I would prefer I did not have 3 alliance bots to fight against...I would prefer that there was a min resil (contenders 4 piece would work for it) for BG Q's.

12/04/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We're open to exploring the possibility of creating a pre-made queue for Battlegrounds, or improving the War Game system in some way.


Yes to all of the above - but none of it happens. So, why do I have to suffer when all I want to do is PvP and if I Q with 5 I am a bad person - or if two groups Q up on a countdown that is bad?

Queueing as 5 is within the intended paramaters. More than 5 is not. Everyone is bound by those same paramaters. It's no more unfair to you than it is to anyone else ----> until you circumvent the paramaters.

RANDOM isnt just about which map you're shipped to.

What if I told all raid leaders voice comms were unfair to the mobs? Or, that premade raids going up against scripted bosses was unfair. Or that reading boss strategies from different web sites telling you EXACTLY WHAT TO DO TO WIN was "not in the spirit of the game" and not intended?

Well so far as I am aware, NPCs are not paying subscribers and the game does not need to be tailored around them. Nor do they have any personal input whatsoever on the future of the franchise. Or feelings.

Do you begin to see my point or am I beating my head against a stone wall that sees things only thru the eyes of Dax?

I hold no special love for him or his post. It just happens to be the very specific stance of blizzard on the issue in an easliy referrable form and location. I'm not even saying i believe him -

But it's clear as day it's not intended.

Edit: And FWIW - the experience that is so readily available - called RBG's - is one of the biggest fail systems Blizzard has EVER implemented. The win trading DDOS'ing and difficulty in getting on a decent team - or even getting the initial 1200 rating required to get on a good team - has made the system such a failure I believe that it will be gone for next season or the season after and something else will replace it. 2200+ in two days of rBG's is just stupid - people paying RL money for those carries is even worse.

Fair enough.

Doesn't excuse the fact you are AWARE of the "rules" and still choosing to circumvent them. Nothing does.
As for people quoting Daxxarri I find that to be very amusing, particularly given the fact that he made some statements that are just untrue. Daxxarri is a human being & puts his pants on the same way as the rest of us... what he says is not gospel and not the truth (it is an opinion). It is so blatantly hypocritical for these players to incessantly whine & pretty much call Blizzard a bunch of retards but cling to one statement that one of their employees made like it is the missing 11th commandment.

Well, it's the 1 commandment because as far as i know it's the only time they've spoken about the issue.

And he was very clear as to their stance on it.

Doesnt take 3 degrees to figure that one out... Just to make excuses to keep on doing it, apparently.
01/16/2013 04:07 AMPosted by Aurellian
Actually please don't point an accusation at me. I have been holding a fairly respectable conversation with you throughout so far and have enjoyed it as an intelligent point counter point (even if we disagree) let's not shift that focus. I CANNOT Q with more than 5 - see Daxx's post you so graciously post and re-post for me.

I post and repost for you because it seems you remain "unlcear" on what has been made perfectly clear.

It is not possible - nor is anyone able - to Q with more than 5 in a group. Blizzard's own Q system allows count down Q's to work and generally be estimable in which bg groups will land in - that's my fault how? What rule am I breaking where it says I cannot count down with another group and try to get in the same BG with them? I don't see that anywhere in the TOS or Terms of Use or anywhere in Daxx's post.


There is no "rule" and I mentioned that myself earlier. Which is why there's no real point in Dax's post.

He states very clearly they are against the actuality of it but they only took action against the automation of it. And until they do more than that people unhappy with that should complain about it. It's all they can do.

I'm not complaining about it. I am simply referrencing the fact that it's clearly against the INTENDED paramaters of the system. And more specifically the "spirit" (as he put it) of the random PvP experience.

And apparently it got to a point that was disrupting enough to the "fun" of the player base involved.
And they did something about it. And likely if it gets to that point again they could do something else.

12/04/2012 02:08 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.


How are PvP and people's feelings inter related? This is an interesting concept.

Not very hard to grasp, however. Takes about 1 BG.

01/16/2013 03:49 AMPosted by Warglaive
Well so far as I am aware, NPCs are not paying subscribers and the game does not need to be tailored around them. Nor do they have any personal input whatsoever on the future of the franchise. Or feelings.


However, the game is in fact largely designed around NPC's their behavior and the items they drop. While the NPC's have no input on the future of the franchise why is it that anyone's feelings being hurt because they got smashed on in PvP have anything to do with the future of the franchise? I get smashed whenever I run into win trading RBG 2400 rating players - why is it not fair for me with my T1 weapon to smash on those with quest greens and two pieces of contenders gear? The relative experience is the same.

Except that only one was created specifically for premades and rewards accordingly. It's not randoms.

My point on the NPC's is - the "spirit of the game" Daxx seems to refer to - is about everyone being bad - so that no one feels like they got short changed. That seems to me like Blizzard is just covering up for the bads by not allowing the good players to team up and smack the bads around. I can get a really HOT group of 5 together and smash 10 of the average players fairly easily. Get 5 other good players on the enemy team and it is a good fight a fun fight. But, it seems Blizzard is saying we want the average guy who plays PvP once or twice a week to go into the BG's and have fun.

So what's stopping you? Queue with 5. What's the problem? Unless you're trying to group together more than that there isnt one. Your 5 get put with 5 or more RANDOM others. I dont see your point here at all...

I say let him get his face smashed a few times - get mad about it and learn to play. That's what I did.

Sounds like you never stopped being mad about it, frankly. In all fairness. =/
Well, it's the 1 commandment because as far as i know it's the only time they've spoken about the issue.

And he was very clear as to their stance on it.

Doesnt take 3 degrees to figure that one out... Just to make excuses to keep on doing it, apparently.
You missed my point. The same players calling Blizzard retards for a "broken" PvP system are in many cases the same players acting like Daxxarri is some sort of divine prophet. That's hypocrisy. Moreover Daxxarri himself made a comment about griefing someone on a PvP server as being perfectly acceptable. How is that any different from premade vs pug, except for 1v1 in the griefing case and groups being involved in the latter case?

It is not possible - nor is anyone able - to Q with more than 5 in a group. Blizzard's own Q system allows count down Q's to work and generally be estimable in which bg groups will land in - that's my fault how? What rule am I breaking where it says I cannot count down with another group and try to get in the same BG with them? I don't see that anywhere in the TOS or Terms of Use or anywhere in Daxx's post.
You are 100% correct but the anti-premade crowd won't listen to reality. They will just keep quoting Daxxarri but refuse to acknowledge that group queueing over the 5 man limit is no longer possible via an addon.

Posted by Daxxarri
Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.
Isn't botting and players ignoring objectives also ruining the experience for players trying to win? There's the rub right there... Daxxarri ignored these issues and even asserted (wrongly) that they have nothing to do with premades. As I and countless others have said we started doing premades because of the sheer number of bots & players ignoring objectives in almost every pug. They ruined our experience (and Blizzard didn't lift a finger to address these issues) so we took matters into our own hands.
01/16/2013 04:36 AMPosted by Kiaransali
How is that any different from premade vs pug, except for 1v1 in the griefing case and groups being involved in the latter case?


The single PvP encounter didnt exploit the random queue reward system? There was no reward for ganking.

01/16/2013 04:36 AMPosted by Kiaransali
no longer possible via an addon.


But still possible through other means. Correct?

01/16/2013 04:36 AMPosted by Kiaransali
They ruined our experience (and Blizzard didn't lift a finger to address these issues) so we took matters into our own hands.


And they didnt take any action against oqueue except to disable the automation of the process. So they didnt lift a finger against you either... did they? Seems rather hypocritical to be so outraged now... they havent even done anything. Have they? You seem a very bitter person to anyone that thinks differently than you.

Why are you so angry at these people?
01/16/2013 03:43 AMPosted by Kiaransali
Do you even know what confirmation bias means?

Yep. Sure do. The poster is taking one contextual meaning of the information that supports his opinion, and ignoring the rest.
As I and countless others have said we started doing premades because of the sheer number of bots & players ignoring objectives in almost every pug. They ruined our experience (and Blizzard didn't lift a finger to address these issues) so we took matters into our own hands.


This part of the argument that bothers me. You use the implication of Blizzards inaction against bots and players as a selling point to queuing full premades, but ignore the implication that by limiting groups queues to 5 (over 2 years ago) that Blizzard preferred that full premades not be in normal battlegrounds. You can't say that: Blizzard's actions speak louder than words on the bot issue, so I am going to take matters into my own hands, and then say, when it comes to full premades in normal BGs, Blizzard hasn't said that it is against anything so...

I wish bots were gone, but I understand that there is probably little that can be done to eliminate them completley. As for players ignoring objectives? They will always be there. Under the current system, if I choose to play a unrated BG, I have to accept that there is the possibility that 5-39 of my teammates will not meet what I consider average play. That's ok though.

I have said in another post that I think taking the full group queue away and forcing it to Rated play was a mistake. The system is what it is, and it is possible to countdown queue to get a full premade. I could participate in that if I choose. I choose not to. If you feel the need to do it, fine by me.

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