The 5.2 blog is tricking most people

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01/24/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Egopally
If it's the second option it'd be pretty simple to have the game do a gear check to make sure that the items you are wearing are on the 'okay' list, and if one isn't on that list then it won't let you.


Have you thought about how this affects the low level brackets? This would be forced into low level brackets and that just wouldn't work because if just 1 thing was not okay, then there would be issues. (I'm assuming we're talking random battlegrounds considering that RBGs you're going to get gear checked anyway). Also, they would literally have to go through every piece of gear by hand and sort it into "Okay" and "Not okay" before this even has a chance to work.


they'd only need to form an 'okay' list as it would be shorter list, if it's not on the okay list then it won't work, so they only need one list.

As for low bracket BG's just have different vendors with the different level of gear to use. or if it's normalized like challenge mode dungeons, they can just make a master set of gear that's essentially blank but will scale to level so the one set can be used for everything.
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP.


There's no reason to be putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about rewards in pvp; I simply said that there should never be a gear disparity. I'm sure you're aware that people do mind-numbingly boring grinds in this game purely for aesthetic rewards: a title, a mount, a piece of gear to transmogrify. Hell, I'm even in the process of doing Insane in the Membrane simply because I want a few words to appear after my name. Why do you think this won't work for pvp? People already buy carries / pilots for titles and gear.

Here, I'll make some suggestions that excite me:

-1800 unlocks a new title that is usable during the season in which it was unlocked but only lasts for that season

-2200 unlocks qt new gear

-2300 unlocks a ground mount that changes every season (you'll have to actually put work into pvp design, I know)

-2400 unlocks a specially designed set that is similar to the challenge mode set: purely cosmetic and with new art models (no re-colors!).

-2500 unlocks previous seasons' qt gear.

You mentioned that there are problems about pve gear mixing in, and I can understand that. So why don't you just make pvp gear gated? Everyone can only get 2 pieces every week. You open the gates further once pve has progressed enough.
01/24/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Egopally
thus, it needs to abide by the progression system or it will never be fair.

so much contradictory.

edit:
I really liked that chess analogy. whoever that was. I can't see how anyone can actually say it is okay to give the top chess player extra pieces. Daxx tried side stepping this by saying the WoW was an rpg and thus it should allow that. but bottom line, if you are playing a competitive game, does this really make logical sense to do?
I love how the only other MMO that really matters is an exception. Nice, no logic behind it being an exception too.

Those "losers" are your majority playerbase, and a lot of the reasons players play MMOs, to get stronger and then use your strength to have fun.

Sorry, but what you're looking for will never be found in this game. If you want me to, I could lead you to LoL or DoTA's websites.


Well ArenaNet doubled down, approaching PvP even more as an e-sport in GW2, so I'm not sure how much of an exception it was. Although - in both games PvP is a completely separate animal, firewalled from the PvE part of the game, so the comparisons end there.

Grand scheme tho, I tend to agree. Gamers won't pay for an e-sport to be mediocre. Blizzard is in the business of making losers feel like winners for $15 a month, and for the foreseeable future that looks like its going to be a 'feel good' gear grind.
they'd only need to form an 'okay' list as it would be shorter list, if it's not on the okay list then it won't work, so they only need one list.As for low bracket BG's just have different vendors with the different level of gear to use. or if it's normalized like challenge mode dungeons, they can just make a master set of gear that's essentially blank but will scale to level so the one set can be used for everything.


They'd still have to look through every item in the game and decide whether or not they are allowed on the "Okay" list. Again, what do you do if you're a hardcore raider and the only gear you have is your Heroic Raid gear? Buy crafted? You can't buy everything crafted? Buy from a vendor? Like blizzard would ever just hand us gear like that (and I'm glad they dont). Low level pvp is getting enough normalization for now being that all people will be temporarily lvled to the level cap in each bracket.

they can just make a master set of gear that's essentially blank but will scale to level so the one set can be used for everything.


I wouldn't mind seeing this, but i wouldn't want it to be better than the BoAs. as well as make it so that they ony activate in random bgs.

The Idea would be something like this.

Test Instance Existance: Battleground
    if Yes, Set value of Item to (Player level)
    If no, Set value of Item to 1
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


This does't make any sense, how can you have something that is competitive but give people advantages. It would be nice to have an aspect of the game where gearing was not a priority. PVP could be the place to take a brake from gearing and get vanity, xmog stuff and other great items. The gear thing is crazy and I cant believe i have been playing this game since Vanilla and they still havent removed gear from pvp.

Someone else brought up this point but why have challenge modes then ? normalized gear.

I dont see why blizz would not want to make their lives easier by normalizing gear for pvp, even removing it. They could then control pvp however they wanted to. They could make dmg higher/lower and stats what ever they wanted to change the aspect of the game. They wouldnt have a bunch of gear they cant change and tune.

This just makes no sense, what you just said is that its cool that people who are good get an even greater advantage. its pvp! this should not be the case. Just get rid of gear, be creative, stop relying on a concept from 8 years ago. Its like thinking outside the box is frowned upon.
I just wanted to say I totally agree. Gear should just be normalized. It's not fair that some group of awesome players can just group up and steam roll everything where I get wrecked and just grind and grind. And then by the end they've already got the best gear and I'm still stuck half way through the progression of gear.

Wait, we're talking about raiding right? Oh this is a PvP thread? Nevermind...
01/24/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Atmosk
It would be nice to have an aspect of the game where gearing was not a priority

Challenge modes
01/24/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Atmosk
PVP could be the place to take a brake from gearing and get vanity, xmog stuff and other great items.

Challenege modes (Mount/xmog/1 other thing That I can't remember)
01/24/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Atmosk
They could make dmg higher/lower and stats what ever they wanted to change the aspect of the game.

That would effect PvE which would be unacceptable.
01/24/2013 01:23 PMPosted by Egopally
They'd still have to look through every item in the game and decide whether or not they are allowed on the "Okay" list. Again, what do you do if you're a hardcore raider and the only gear you have is your Heroic Raid gear? Buy crafted? You can't buy everything crafted? Buy from a vendor? Like blizzard would ever just hand us gear like that (and I'm glad they dont). Low level pvp is getting enough normalization for now being that all people will be temporarily lvled to the level cap in each bracket.

They wouldn't need to look through every item of the game, just current and past PvP items.
Or if they still don't want to bother copy/pasting to form a list of PvP gear, they can go with that master set blank gear idea instead and then that would be what's used for all pvp.


I wouldn't mind seeing this, but i wouldn't want it to be better than the BoAs.

that's fine, it would just be equal. with the exception that BoA heirlooms increase experience gained as well.

and it can just scale from character level
I just wanted to say I totally agree. Gear should just be normalized. It's not fair that some group of awesome players can just group up and steam roll everything where I get wrecked and just grind and grind. And then by the end they've already got the best gear and I'm still stuck half way through the progression of gear.

Wait, we're talking about raiding right? Oh this is a PvP thread? Nevermind...


PvP would lose popularity because it would only be a casual thing to those who never really PvP for rate. I pvp because it's fun. I do eventually want to pvp for rate, but I'd rather get there by crushing scrubs who have higher rate but lesser gear. Even though I want that rate, I still wouldn't care about battlegrounds. And also, random battlegrounds would lose alot of popularity BECAUSE there is no competitiveness in them. you would probably end up with 10min + q times.


PvP would lose popularity because it would only be a casual thing to those who never really PvP for rate. I pvp because it's fun. I do eventually want to pvp for rate, but I'd rather get there by crushing scrubs who have higher rate but lesser gear. Even though I want that rate, I still wouldn't care about battlegrounds. And also, random battlegrounds would lose alot of popularity BECAUSE there is no competitiveness in them. you would probably end up with 10min + q times.


What do you mean by no competitiveness?

What I hear is "Oh god we have someone with 300k hp, we're gonna lose".

I wish we had more or less normalized gear so people in greens don't take up space.
01/24/2013 01:46 PMPosted by Positron
I wish we had more or less normalized gear so people in greens don't take up space.


Now see, that's the problem with you people, you don't understand that you were once there too. I mean, Yes, he has greens, but who's to say that he's not a good player? A player that can handle himself in greens regardlessly? I'd take a healer in greens over no healer anyday. Even if he's a dps that knows how to survive, I'd take him over a full malev glad who doesn't try to win any day.
I wish we had more or less normalized gear so people in greens don't take up space.


Now see, that's the problem with you people, you don't understand that you were once there too. I mean, Yes, he has greens, but who's to say that he's not a good player? A player that can handle himself in greens regardlessly? I'd take a healer in greens over no healer anyday. Even if he's a dps that knows how to survive, I'd take him over a full malev glad who doesn't try to win any day.


All of my wut.

so you're saying that if someone is handicapped they should try harder. how about not be handicapped in the first place?
01/24/2013 01:50 PMPosted by Egopally
I wish we had more or less normalized gear so people in greens don't take up space.


Now see, that's the problem with you people, you don't understand that you were once there too. I mean, Yes, he has greens, but who's to say that he's not a good player? A player that can handle himself in greens regardlessly? I'd take a healer in greens over no healer anyday. Even if he's a dps that knows how to survive, I'd take him over a full malev glad who doesn't try to win any day.


The problem is gear means too much in this game. That's why it's an issue.

That's the main reason why premades work is primarily because of gear. So you have people with gear and still try then what? You are arguing for the sake of it that has no bearing on reality.

You also have tons of people botting because they don't like grinding gear.
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.

Philosophically, I sympathize with that perspective, and we do recognize the value in it. We actually try to offer an environment that provides most of that experience via the Arena Pass realm. Hopefully, it remains popular and we can ensure that option remains available long into the future too.

World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


I think the question is really quite simple. Would pvp be better if more people participated? Looking at most people's armory it looks like not many people PVP anymore. I'd be willing to bet it has more to do with the gear disparity than anything. It really only serves as a barrier to entry to other players at this point.

Since you have access to the numbers, why don't you take a look at the percentage of players who participated in 10 or more arena or BG matches a week. Then look at the trend from week 1 to now, then come back and tell me that's not a "niche" with a straight face...
So from what you're saying Daxxarri... If we want competition, we need to play a different game.
01/24/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Chikatree
so you're saying that if someone is handicapped they should try harder.


No I'm saying that I'd rather have people that have a reason to win. Not play with people who just want to kill eachother. If we gave everyone equal gear, it would ruin the "need to win" attitude in randoms, and I like winning, even if it is just randoms. I mean, a person in greens is going to do something, even if it isn't as much as a geared player, he has more of a reason to win.
01/24/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Mvp
So from what you're saying Daxxarri... If we want competition, we need to play a different game.

I heard that too.
I had no idea that WoW was a Korean mmo until now.

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