10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
Prev 1 13 14 15 84 Next
Also, you have yet to do a 10 man raid this expansion. Any reason for this? I imply that you are biased because you haven't DONE any pve this expansion.
I don't like how 25M is supposed to get commendations over 10M. Both have their own unique struggles, and I wouldn't say one is harder than the other. In fact, I think 25M in concept is easier than 10M.

In a 25M raid you can have 3-5 people not doing very well and be able to pull up the slack. In a 10M, you need all 10 people to be performing admirably. In 25M you can have a person or two miss a raid and be fine, in 10M if one person misses it's usually a debilitating circumstance.

So telling raiders that 25M raids are going to get better rewards, it's the equivalent of giving some people who don't try at all better gear than those who work hard all the time.
This whole thing is really silly. I had to comment again on it besides my original post, but they are basically just throwing darts at a dartboard with ideas listed on it and then just implementing them.

Horrible design.
01/23/2013 11:14 AMPosted by Ristrettee
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


I would enjoy this more.


It is too late to change raid size in the game, especially with probably half the servers now having population problems. This would have had to be a change years ago, not in the middle of MoP.
If you make it drop "Rune of Thunderforging" that works on non tier (and not offset items in those slots) I don't actually think this will help 25 mans stay alive, but it at least won't make even more 25 man officers /wrists, which is one of the leading causes for guilds going 10 man in spite of already many advantages to 25 mans. There are advantages to each raid size, but in the end, being an officer in a 25 man is a terrible, terrible job (if you're any good at it), and being an officer in a 10 man isn't. Make this idea a token, make them not drop from Coin/charm rolls, and at least you're not making the problem worse.
01/23/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Tacolol
Also, you have yet to do a 10 man raid this expansion. Any reason for this? I imply that you are biased because you haven't DONE any pve this expansion.


I'm not bias. I'm not asking 25 man to get destroyed. It doesn't matter how much raiding I've done here. I'm not asking uber super things to happen to 10 man either. What you are doing is remove 10 man because your original logic is it isn't epic and 25 man is and caters to *Arena Hero Crowd* which is demeaning and insulting to those that like 10 man raids.
This system of boss kills having potential to drop both regular and Thunder Forged (TF) items seems like a bad idea, an additional layer of RNG does not make for a more compelling or interesting gaming experience. Giving 25m raiders additional chance at higher items strikes a negative chord with me as they already get additional loot drops thus higher potential for usable loot.
I don't like how 25M is supposed to get commendations over 10M. Both have their own unique struggles, and I wouldn't say one is harder than the other. In fact, I think 25M in concept is easier than 10M.

In a 25M raid you can have 3-5 people not doing very well and be able to pull up the slack. In a 10M, you need all 10 people to be performing admirably. In 25M you can have a person or two miss a raid and be fine, in 10M if one person misses it's usually a debilitating circumstance.

So telling raiders that 25M raids are going to get better rewards, it's the equivalent of giving some people who don't try at all better gear than those who work hard all the time.


LOLNO. I have done both 10 and 25 this expansion. There is NO DPS checks in 10-Man at all. If anything DPS has to be slowed down for a mechanic to happen or something. It's a joke. That doesn't exist in 25-Man for a DPS check. Missing raids is irrelevant. 10-Mans that are serious should be raiding with a core of 15.
Two things:

1. Why leave tier gear out of this? That makes no sense to me. Bring the upgrade dudes back but only for tier gear.

2. When can these thunderforged Items drop? Is it possible, however remotely, to have one drop on a first kill? If I win a reg piece one week and the extra version drops next week, who gets it, me cause its an upgrade of the piece I already have or can I give it to someone still wearing last tier's gear?

I dunno, seems kinda complicated to me....just bring back the 10/25 dual lockouts.
Why not just raise the VP cap and only have it obtainable through 25mans
I like the change, it adds incentive to continue farming after the content is old, dry and far from interesting.

Plus you may actually get upgrades rather than more sha crystals.
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


What will the chance for Thunderforged be in their respective formats? Thanks!
The reason it takes more time than 10 mans is every pve hero is already locked out to a random 10 man dungeon. If there were just 25 mans it'd be much easier. MMO's are meant to be MMOS not, my 5 friends picked up 3 pugs and herp derped to victory.


Again your idea is fun is subjective to others and my own. I don't want to be forced to do 25 man's. Your idea is an extreme and shouldn't be taken to heart.


As a 25-man raider right now, my guild has to run both 10-man and 25-man raid nights. As a 25-man raider, I am essentially forced to play a type of content I don't like (10-mans). If you actually look at the vast majority of 25-man guilds (other than say the top 5% of 25-man guilds), we've killed stuff on 10-man content first.

So, the fallacy about being forced to do content is actually ironic because people who want to run 25's don't get to run 25's anymore. With only 1 or 2 guilds on a server that run 25-man content, you don't have a choice of what guild you are in if you want to run 25-man content. They haven't created a system of "seperate but equal", they've created a system of "just run 10-man if you want to actually progress because you don't have any competition to compare yourself to if you are a 25-man guild anyway".

By collapsing across achievements and preventing sites like wowprogress from actually being able to track 25 vs 10-man progress in any real meaningful way, all they've managed to do is destroy the 25-man raiding environment even for people who would rather quit the game than run 10s (those people for the most part have already quit and moved on from WOW meaning that their voices are already gone and replaced with the vocal minority of people who are already getting what they want).

There will always be guilds that have leadership burnout and collapse. The important part of a healthy game is that new guilds should pop up in their place. Both 10-man and 25-man guilds eventually burn out and stop running. However, Instead of being able to choose between creating a 25-man and a 10-man guild, the only option is to create a new 10-man guild.

Thus, all the 10s and 25s fold and are just replaced by new 10s. At the current rate of entropy, there won't be any 25-man guilds left by the time that the next expansion launches unless something gets done that makes it easier to choose to be a newly formed 25-man guild. The fact that it's easier to just stop recruiting when you hit enough people to run 10s, and you have zero incentive to take the extra effort to find the additional 20 people you need to run a full 25-man guild means that people are just going to let 25s attrition and die out from the game completely.

Is this new system going to fix that problem? Absolutely not. It's a nice handout to those of us who are currently raiding 25s, and may have a few more people post applications on our forums. However, when my guild's officers burn out and my 25-man guild dies (lets say 3 years from now, if we're able to hold out that long), there won't be any other 25-man guild on my server that I could join to run 25s that fits my playstyle, schedule, and general interests - because we were the only guild on our server who was raiding 25-man heroic modes at the end of Dragon Soul. The other dozen 25-man guilds were either gone or only running 10s. Instead, I'd have the option of finding a 10-man or quitting the game entirely. For people who love 25-mans, we unfortunately aren't given the same luxury of choice that people who love 10-mans are given.

In the end, I would have preferred that we just had one raid size that everyone ran, rather than the untrue illusion of choice we're being offered right now. As someone who hates 10-man raids and only wants to run 25-mans, I really wish that the "separate but equal" 25 vs 10 was actually a real thing.
So what's this do to the whole PVE vs PVP gear debate/5.2 changes? The other blue post talked about created 4 tiers of PVP gear to match PVE, but now PVE will also be changing to 6 tiers in the same patch?
I don't like how 25M is supposed to get commendations over 10M. Both have their own unique struggles, and I wouldn't say one is harder than the other. In fact, I think 25M in concept is easier than 10M.

In a 25M raid you can have 3-5 people not doing very well and be able to pull up the slack. In a 10M, you need all 10 people to be performing admirably. In 25M you can have a person or two miss a raid and be fine, in 10M if one person misses it's usually a debilitating circumstance.

So telling raiders that 25M raids are going to get better rewards, it's the equivalent of giving some people who don't try at all better gear than those who work hard all the time.


The level of ignorance in this post is just mind-blowing.

Content hasn't been like that since normal modes in Wrath and the entire concept of "larger raid size allows for more deadweight" died with the loss of 40mans.
01/23/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Batok
This is silly - they should just adopt 15 mans across-the-board with the same loot and be done with it.


no. do you realize all the drama this would bring?

I don't see why - 25s shuffle around a little bit and 10s pick up a few. I'm sure it'll work itself out after a few weeks and 15 seems like a nice, normal, not overwhelming number, no?

To me that's better than the idea that 25s deserve better loot because they can organize 25 people. To me, that really doesn't make any sense.

Obviously, smaller raids are popular, larger raids are unpopular, so split the difference.
01/23/2013 11:19 AMPosted by Ripley
Why not just raise the VP cap and only have it obtainable through 25mans


that is a terrible idea because it would kill 10 mans and would not give casuals a good way to get gear if they ever wanted to try raiding
I haven't read through all 14 pages (at this point) of posts, but wouldn't this cause potential issues with tier sets if the tier gear is lower item level? This may mean that a BiS set for any particular role may not include ANY tier gear if the set bonuses are not sufficient to overcome the increase in stats from Titanforged items.
This will solve nothing; 10s will continue to flourish in 5.2 and 25s will continue to disband. I'll try to be as fair and as objective about this as possible.

The core problem surrounding this mentality (and other attempts made by the design team during Cata) comes from a single misconception: that 10s and 25s are the same.

They are not.

Unfortunately, it is a mentality that is preached by Blizzard (ie. "We're continuing to do our very best job at balancing the difficulty between 10s and 25s") as well as eaten up by the masses of 10m guilds that complained leading into Cata (ie. "It's TOTALLY unfair that we can't run ICC for our legendary quest items!! THIS IS BS!!1!"). So, because this is a shared misconception between the community and Blizzard itself, it's never going to be addressed. You can see that mentality continuing, right in the middle of the blue post itself:

would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders


...which is exactly how the 25m guilds felt going into Cata.

...and is exactly how the 40m guilds felt going into TBC.

Unfortunately, only the true hardcore world-first guilds will ever continue to run 25s (and even they are condensing down to 10), but for a reasonable 25m guild that wishes to maintain a healthy roster and a realistic schedule, the pros do not outweigh the cons. There's no separation of achievements, of rewards--in short, no acknowledgement of effort in 25 as opposed to 10, so when raid leaders try to hold poor performers accountable, poor performers have no incentive to improve, because there's no structure keeping them on the right path.

Instead, they flip their middle finger at the raid leader, leave the 25, and join a 10--to get exactly what they were going to get in the 25.

You see, the 10 and 25 issue goes much deeper than what Blizzard cares to acknowledge. I can't speak to what their experience is running a 25m guild, but I can only expect that when they play themselves, secretly, their guilds are laid back, low drama, and its very easy for them to raid, issue out loot, etc...which gives them the opportunity to focus on making the game MECHANICALLY better (ie. "Boy, it would be great if we could figure out how to get more people into raids--let's invent LFR"). But, by focusing on these mechanical changes, they fail to address to SOCIAL ramification of these changes. By removing these virtual "guardrails" which keep players honest and accountable, continuing to strive and help push their guild into 25m success, these players now all gutterball out...because they can.

You couldn't gutterball out in Wrath; if you stopped running 25m ICC, your chances at finishing the legendary were over.

In order to re-incenvize 25m correctly, this is what needs to happen (but won't, until the 10/25 mentality changes, either on Blizzard's side, or the community's):

1. LFR/10/25 locks all split Run everything / anything / nothing. Want to do just LFR? Knock yourself out. Hate LFR but want to do a 10 and a 25? Go nuts. Just care about 25? Do it up. Guild's not large enough to do 25? Do a 10. Go crazy. Players complaining they have too much to run? Treat them exactly like you are treating people now who complain there are too many dailies; ie. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THEM. IT'S YOUR OWN CHOICE.

2. Make a public announcement that 10s and 25s are not the same. You gave it a good shot. We applaud you. A++ for effort, would run raid again. But at the end of the day, 10s and 25s are not the same. It's time to admit this, and move forward, without finessing answers like "well this boss is harder in 10, and this boss here is much harder in 25". SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT:

LFR: Easy
10: Medium
25: Hard

Accept this. Move forward with this design.

3. Different Raids -> Different Rewards: LFR is stupid easy, so the rewards should be also stupid. Want to take a little pride in what you do? Run a 10 or 10H instead. Want to put the most effort into the nightmare of coordinating / managing a 25? Alright, then: your reward is the best gear, but at the same time it's hard as hell. Additionally, achievements need to be split again. There needs to be a separate 10m and 25m version of each raid achievement.

4. Blizzard sanctioned acknowledge of raid progress: Why is it that guildox and wowprogress, two fan based sites, are the only reasonable way to gauge the progression of a raiding guild? Why is the same effort that was put into the challenge mode listings not applied to a definitive, Blizzard-approved ranking of raid progress? If you are serious about acknowledge guilds and their progress, you need to NOT leave this to fan sites to come up with bizarre proprietary calculations to figure out who is on top.

5. LFR stops one tier behind current content: This isn't going to be popular, but let's take a moment and remember LFR was added: to get players raiding that would otherwise never have an opportunity to experience content. And that's wonderful, that is absolutely fantastic. Everybody deserves a shot at raiding--not everybody deserves the same rewards. And when I say the same, I mean a palette swap and a few ilvls...is not enough of a difference. LFR was meant to serve a purpose: get people seeing content that wouldn't otherwise. What it has become is: get everyone to run it because the loot is "good enough and I can't be bothered with a raid leader telling me I play like a moron". Want to re-incentivize 25s? Start by cutting LFR off at the previous tier. LFR continues to run up-to-and-including Terrace, so that the 10s and 25s (so long as the above changes are also made) begin cutting their teeth in the real content.

This is what needs to happen to re-incentivize 25s. But they won't happen. Because everybody wants everything handed to them now. Players will demand that they are ENTITLED to reaping the same rewards because they pay the same fee (while conveniently side-stepping the same logic for putting forth the same EFFORT), meanwhile, Blizzard will remain focused on this thought process: "Why do you feel it is so important to take away the rewards from one group of people, so that another group of people can enjoy the game instead?"

Because, GC & Team: taking those rewards away from group A...keeps the people in group B accountable...and continuing to show up to 25s, week after week.


This whole post pretty much summarizes why MANY players have no faith that anyone working for blizzard plays their own game with the public at a deep level of the game.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum