10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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This might be seem weird, but this might help. Separate the lockouts for 10 and 25 man. Make the number of drops based upon how many people in the group are not saved to the boss (so if you are in a 25 man and 10 people have downed the boss in 10 man, then maybe you only get 3 pieces of loot). You are only eligible for loot the first time you down a boss. The second time you down a boss you get CRAZY CURRENCY NAME OF YOUR CHOICE. You can redeem some of this currency for dies, similar to diablo that you can use to dye your gear.

This would allow more people to do 10 and 25 man without feeling forced to do both for a gear advantage, and while changing the color of armor might seem insignificant, see how crazy some people are for transmogs. Each tier there is new die that can only be used to color gear from that tier.
Just from personal experience in a 10h and 25h setting during t11, it felt like 10s are tuned much tighter than 25s and there's nothing stopping a 25m dropping to a 10m group one week to get kills from having better gear than an initial 10m. Also knowing players who can't raid in a 25m setting due to computer/connection issues, I don't see the extra loot bonus being a real problem solver of "25mans are evaporating." This gear/tuning situation isn't new, just seems like another coat of shiny paint.

I'm personally neutral about the whole situation, I just don't see how it'll do any real good.
in regards to the OP:

this will change nothing. As long as there is 10 man raiding, the vast majority of 25 will run into "roadblocks", and trim down to their best 12 or so raiders to complete the content.

kill 10 man raiding as part of the regular tier, and include a couple "kara/ZA/ZG type" 10 man raid per ex-pack to appease the 10 man people.

make it all 25 man raiding. anything else is a waste of manpower on your end.
Would it be possible to also increase the chance for rare mounts to drop in 25 mans to match the amount of people in the raid? Most rare mounts seem to have a 1% drop rate but with 2.5 times the people in a 25 man raid it would seem more fitting if the drop chance were 2.5 times as likely in these environments.
If your objective is to encourage 25-man groups, the obvious flaw is extending Thunderforged to LFR — especially if the only difference is drop rate.

Why would a guild expand, or two guilds consolidate, or even players on a realm start a pug and spend 3-4 hours clearing 8 bosses when Tuesday-night LFRs could run the whole thing in half the time for slightly lesser odds? If LFR loot has taught anyone anything, being 1% away from gear doesn't matter.

I'm not asking for this, but for the sake of argument, the only way you're going to persuade anyone to undertake the risk and responsibility for 25-man is for a Thunderforged weapon to drop from every single boss.
Virtutis and Poena are on to things as per usual. I really wish Blizzard would listen to people like them more often. They normally make good well thought out posts that go largely ignored by most. Read their posts and take them to heart.
You can double the amount of loot 25s drop but it wont improve the state of 25s. Less people=less skill variance which is why the majority of 10s exists because there is less logistics and less skill variances. Like everyone stated above this will make the logistics harder because nobody will be wanting to sit in a 25 and I still nobody has said "Wow this maybe is a good time to go to 25s".

Honestly if you are lurking here and think this will make your 10s bump to 25s please say so but the simple fact is there are people like me who wants to raid 25s but are slowly finding their options becoming limited to join one but throwing more loot is not the answer.
in regards to the OP:

this will change nothing. As long as there is 10 man raiding, the vast majority of 25 will run into "roadblocks", and trim down to their best 12 or so raiders to complete the content.

kill 10 man raiding as part of the regular tier, and include a couple "kara/ZA/ZG type" 10 man raid per ex-pack to appease the 10 man people.

make it all 25 man raiding. anything else is a waste of manpower on your end.
Not going far enough, kill 10's entirely. One raid size 20 or 25. Three settings, LFR, normal, and heroic. And I say this as a former 10 player.

Multiple raid sizes just causes more problems than it solves, has for years, and this won't fix it.
Do you think this will create additional organizational burden for the leadership in terms of loot distribution? Everyone is going to feel entitled to the Thunderforged items and when they don't get it it's going to be the leadership that's going to feel the pain. The leadership burden is probably one of the the root causes of the fall of the 25m and to me this change feels like it's going to make that even worse.
now if i could only play ptr stuck in cata ..
Just throwing this out for discussion why can't their be one raid size at 15 people? This would dramtically fix issues if changed for next expansion, if we still have enough raiders around that is...
You know what would fix 25m raiding? Free server transfers.
Chaingirl, based on your ICC kill dates (2012) you have never actually raided 25 man when it was the predominate raid size. You write off the logistical issues and difficulties coordinating 25 players vs 10 with "lol 25s already get more loot."

Please take your lack of insight back to whatever guys fawn over your trashy tmog.
I just have to add this. Remember that —

01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

— is of your own doing.

There are some things about risk versus reward that are immutable. The only way to revitalize 25-man raiding, if you truly want to, is to make its benefits totally impossible (not less likely) for 10-man to match, and that means higher iLevels.
Thanks for this. I was kind of on the fence about continuing WoW after how bad everything in mop has been so far other than the actual raids, and needed to free up some time for other stuff in life, so now I can sub cancel and not have a second thought about what I might be missing! I won't be missing anything at all, just an added component of grinding mixed with an extra dose of frustrating rng :)

WoW - pushing the boundaries of just how un-fun they can make a game that was once fun.
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

I think this is a novel effort at best to encourage 25 man raiding. It still does not bring NA or EU into parity with KR or CN servers. I still don't get why Blizzard promotes this type of favoritism within their game? I still don't understand why there has to be separate formats for regions when there is a race every tier? You'll never have equal balance between 10 and 25 man in difficulty or the effort it takes to manage a larger size raid. So why do we have to be different?
I'm not going to get into how this fails to fix the problem at all.

What's more important is how this effects individual players and loot systems. Many players goal is to go into each new tier with full "best in slot". Recently this has become much more of a chore with the opportunity of upgrading your ilevel with valor points. Now we have to worry about getting these rare exclusive thunder forge items too! This doesn't help 25 player guilds. This helps lucky or loot inclined individuals. Usually players fight over rare trinkets or weapons and now we have to worry about this too. I don't want a complicated loot system. I want to look at loot tables and say this is the gear I want to be in at the end of the tier. And have that be an obtainable goal.

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