10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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A concern I have though: What will this do to item inflation over the course of the rest of the expansion? Or over the course of the game?
Will Tier 16's iLvl be balanced around Normal / Heroic with the upgradable vendor in 5.3?, or will it be balanced around Normal-TF and Heroic-TF?

Tier 16 normal gear would have to be slightly higher ilvl than Tier15 Heroic-TF. At this point, you're making T16 normal gear at least 542.

Tier 14 normal: 496
Tier 15 normal: 522
Tier 16 normal: 548

This seems fine until you factor in Heroics with VP upgrade)

Tier 14 Heroic: 509 (+8, 517)

Even with the +8, a Heroic T14 item will be lower ilvl of Normal TF (522). This is good. However..

A Heroic Thunderforged item that is upgraded via VP in 5.3 will reach 549. This is higher than T16's normal ilvl.

I talked myself into a circle, but I hope my concern was clear.

item upgrades are being removed from the game in 5.2
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
The addition of Thunderforged items also have benefits for both 10- and 25-player raids. For instance, if a raid group is stuck on boss #5 and their members have all the viable upgrades from previous bosses, going through those bosses again to work on #5 can now bring added bonuses. We think this makes these efforts much more fun and rewarding.

My group could potentially benefit from this change as we have been stuck for a long time and I don't need gear off the bosses we can kill. However, I prefer the freedom I have right now to sit or bring in an alt because I'm 'done' with those bosses rather than feel forced to slog through mind numbing farm content on the off chance of getting a very rare drop.
This is not a favorable change for 25 mans from my perspective. Gear is a source of drama in a lot of guilds and this will just add to it.

As one poster has already mentioned, as a 25 man casual guild there has to be a roster of 30-35 people to compensate for real life situations that take a raiding member away from WoW on any given raid night. With that size of a roster, we sub people in and out on a boss by boss basis in order to keep people geared and active within the guild. There are nights when all our raiders are on. In that case, we just make sure no one logs off because there are always subs for various reasons.

Adding 4 seperate ilvls of gear in the same instance means that raiders will not volunteer to sit in the extremely rare chance that a higher 6 ilvl upgrade of the same heroic or normal item will drop. If we can't "pay" our bench so to speak, then we lose subs and back ups. Forcing people to sit will turn disastrous. It may be paranoid thinking, but 25 mans may have to shrink their roster either by choice or drama.

I don't quite understand why the achievements aren't seperate? There must be some kind of realization that balancing 10 and 25 mans just won't ever happen, there are way to many factors to consider - known and unknown. You could always just force GMs or officers to select their desired raid size and lock it in to that guild or add a CD timer of 3 months or so, that way 25 mans can't steal the 10 man realm first achieves.

It's hard enough to maintain a 25 man guild. Throwing more gear at us in that manner will just make it more difficult.

This is a really important set of points that have been mentioned a couple times throughout the thread.


Also, my 25-man uses EPGP and we bribe our backups to stay online with EP attendance points for being on standby. We sometimes have people available by phone, twitter, or battle-tag so they don't have to be logged in all raid to make sitting easier.
I don't know why this announced loot change was framed as a 10 vs. 25 issue. 25m raids already have access to more loot - we construct legendaries faster (historically), and our bosses already drop more loot per person.

Consequently, the fact that we'll get more thunderforged items seems to be nothing more than a continuation of this (failed) method of encouraging 25-man raids, and I can't stress that last point enough - giving us access to a greater quantity of the same loot that is available in 10m's has done nothing to encourage growth of the 25m format in the past. I don't see why that should change now, and I'm not looking forward to rotating 30-35 people in and out of raids when people will presumably be less likely to volunteer to sit for farm content.

Quoting a post from a few pages back for emphasis:

Honestly, this change feels like the latest in an effort to hold two contradictory design views simultaneously:

1) 10-man raiding is just as hard as 25-man raiding and deserves similar rewards.

2) 25-man raiding is harder than 10-man raiding and deserves better rewards.

You then proceed to play a bunch of linguistic games about just how 10-man raiding is 'just as hard' or how 25-man raiding is 'harder', but the reality is that until you settle on (1) or (2) you aren't going to be able to produce a real solution, since you haven't identified whether or not there's actually a real problem.
01/23/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Zaxan
Why is LFR gear 20points lower than Normal? 502 vs 522? It used to be 13 point . Like 483 - 496 - 509. What happened now?
Why does it matter?

Of course it does! Just need an explanation from blizzard please. Thanks
I'll keep saying it over and over, but simply FIXING the recruitment forums would go light years to help 25 guilds. If organization and logistics are the problem, give us tools to make those things easier. Would help 10 mans, too.
When I heard a controversial decision about 25 mans I was hoping for something actually controversial, not just a lame spin off of the valor upgrade idea. I do not like this idea (and yes I realize that's why it's being called "controversial").

I find the current system of shared loot with green flavor text to be extremely boring. I miss the days of having totally different items drop in heroic and normal (even if they shared a large portion of the graphics). The idea of one more ilvl with a different flavor text is neither "exciting" nor a good idea.

I know it's going to piss a lot of people off but I really feel the best thing for WoW would be one raid size. Either 15 or 20 players so that we can focus on better tuning and better encounters and to finally eliminate the silly difficulty debate. I know it's not going to be popular in the short term but people WILL adapt and it will be so much better in the end.
This is one of the worst changes I've seen in a long time from Blizzard. Rewarding players for doing nothing other than getting lucky with RNG inside of RNG is frustrating and no fun to deal with. Sure, you'll get excited when you finally get lucky and get a piece, but then you'll remember you still have to get a 10% chance on a 10% drop (theoretical numbers) for 4 other pieces of gear and get disheartened when you realize those odds.

This system will reward lucky players who do the fight exactly the same as unlucky players. There is no reasoning behind why you get upgraded loot, it's just pure RNG. You aren't earning anything like you would on say, Heroic Elite Protectors, you're just being handed better loot for rolling 100 2 times in a row.
01/23/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Memgob
Why does it matter?

Of course it does! Just need an explanation from blizzard please. Thanks

K here's the kicker with this.

Someone who is working up for a raid app and possibly get into a decent raiding guild will need to gear.

In DS and so far in MoP, LFR has presented itself as a method for players who are newerish, or gearing a toon change or alt, to get that done without relying on PuGs.

You can say, you don't need it to do normal mode, all day. The fact is that a guild who has one mage slot, is going to take the person in LFR gear over the one in heroic blues.

Now with the next patch, this is going to be even tougher to break that. Mainly because LFR gear is so far below the normal mode gear (by their current example) that they will never be considered on those apps.

You want to gripe and complain about people not trying or wanting to join in on 25 man raiding. A lot of it comes from the tons of people who are looking for it, but get told no because they don't have, or meet, the insane expectations of others on it.

The bigger the gear disparity, the less people there will be that raid leaders consider acceptable to recruit.
However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment.
Unfounded and unfair? Based on what?

If the majority is choosing 10-player raids, that seems like a pretty good foundation to call 25-player raids "less favorable". Unfounded, you say? You're hand waving and being dismissive, I say.

01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward.
As you even mention in the original post, it is primarily the guild leadership that incurs the addition coordination effort. The standard "member" of the 25-player raid team typically has no higher cost to 25man raiding over 10man. In fact, it's easier to be fairly anonymous or uninvolved in a 25-player raid, making it even simpler for the average raider.

01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.
You know this how? Calling 10's popularity strictly gear-based is Unfounded and Unfair. Especially when the reality is that 10-player gearing is significantly slower than 25-player gearing, due both to the number of drops per person, and the distribution of random drops and the probability of the gear being useful to the raid.

Players who are not guild masters/officers or raid leaders, who want the highest effort versus reward should opt for 25-mans.

.....and perhaps that's the problem? Perhaps that's the bias you're seeing? Not that players are saying they want to do 25's because they're more fun and they need Blizzard's help to force people to do them, but perhaps you're listening to the casual crowd who wants to be fairly anonymous and carried within a 25 man raid to better gear. Where it's easier for them to mess up without notice. Where there's less pressure to perform specific tasks by themselves. Where they'll gear faster.

Do you know why it's so easy for a 25-man guild to split up and do 10's? Because almost invariably there are members of different skill levels within the original 25-player roster, and the exceptional players are able to identify the difference in skill level. And over time, those at the top tend to get tired of the mistakes their less-skilled guildmates may be making. And as players enjoy playing with better, or similarly, skilled players, those at the top (who are often also the leaders who have to put in additional effort) decide that everything would be easier for them if they weren't being held back; if they actually found a group of their peers at a similar skill level.

I raided 25-player raids for years, personally. The switch to 10 player raiding was the best move I've made yet. It is significantly more fun, challenging, and rewarding than any of my 25-player raids have ever been. I am certainly not alone in sharing those opinions or experiences.
So 502 gear from LFR, that is really demoralizing. Why does LFR need to give equivalent gear to MSV Heroics when it takes less effort than MSV normal? I thought they talked about LFR not being important to normal raiders past the first tier. The ilvl should be reduced, I don't want to run LFR to stay competitive, its sooo boring, and burns me out with its watered down ways.
I'm pretty certain my guild is the target case for this change. We are the second 25man guild on a medium sized server. We're struggling to deal with insane turnover, loot drama, and an incredibly slow and unreliable recruit spigot.

This change will actually be bad for us. It will cause our officer core even more stress thinking about loot, endless complaining about RNG, and will make getting trials/alts in on farm content nigh impossible (on the nights we DO have more than 25 people).

Do you know what I want?
I want are my time and stress back. How about giving more gold, lesser charms, and valor from the bosses, so all the hand-holding, recruiting, and general administration I do comes out of my WoW time, instead of adding to it.

I want easier access to strong recruits. Lowering the cost of server transfers, cross realm raiding, merging servers could all help. A gear incentive can help here, but not at the cost of even more officer effort dealing with yet another tier of RNG and gear.

How about rolling back the amount of 'required' content for mains, so that people's alts are more capable of filling in when we have holes in our roster?
I love the idea, and would very much like to get back to 25man raiding. (Dead on my realm).

My only suggestion is to not include weapons. As much as I would love that as a warrior, I will admit that it forces me to snub the normal versions of weapons with my "dkp" and wait for the higher version, meanwhile cursing RNG every week in the process because it's my biggest upgrade.
Three comments on this:

Is this a thing?
I can't see this as a motivation to get in 25 and I doubt it is for my Raid Leader UNLESS there are not enough 10 man raiders so we need to move to 25 to get people. So as a incentive I think it fails.

Why it has to be RNG based?
Ok, you want to give a little more incentive to farm and a little more for doing 25 over 10, but why it has to based on chance? couldn't be good old farming? Maybe even RNG but not an absolute 0-1, but more like you need 10 items to get the Thunderforged item, you'll get 0-3 items each week. Like the Motes and essences in DS but with other numbers, so at least you know that you are getting something every kill.

If you want to give something to the people organizing the raids? Why do you give it to the raiders?
Set something that marks who is the raid leader in a 25 man, like a raid registering form that you need to fill before creating a raid group and each kill and raiding night that the raid leader participates count towards him (maybe 1-2 officers too), and when they complete the raids give them:
- a mount
- an achievement
- a title
- a shiny effect on their armor
- a set of gear for transmog
- all of the above?

The only way to make 25 man raids more interesting is making that those capable of organizing have the desire to doing them more than doing 10 man. Make the 10 raid leaders jealous of the 25 raid leaders, make them create the incentive for the raiders, make the 25 man leaders be your army to recover the relevance of this format.
You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502

Great so those who only do the LFR version of raiding will, come 5.2 be able to out gear players who have done this tier in normal mode, we were told previously that this would not happen.
LFR should not be giving gear greater than the previous tiers raiding level drops, theres no point in players who are still progressing near the end of the patch to bother at all they will get better gear from doing the easy mode lfr if they wait rather than challenge themselves in normal raids when the end is in site.

LFR 5.2 will not be set at a harder level than this tiers normal modes , however the drops will be of a higher item lvl, full clears of MSV HOF and ToES will be trumped by the LFR gear drops that can be looted multiple times thanks to coins, the normal modes can only be done once per week. Guess who will gear up over il500 quicker?
All the talk about not having to do lfr for gear progression has been forgotten, unless you have heroic gear you will find upgrades in LFR even if you have done 16/16 normal mode bosses.
This is kind of confusing. I don't mean the higher drop rate in 25m vs 10m, but just the inclusion of two additional levels of some items. If you want to give an incentive, just have items obtained in a 25m automagically be 1/2 upgraded, or have the upgrade cost be reduced to 500 vp from 750.
01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

I think that one reason you forgot to mention is the fact that blizzard wants everyone to focus more on their "main" rather than their alts. Or am I wrong in assuming that when a boss is on farm and most of the raid has their toons geared that you bring in the alts to do the farm status bosses and bring back the mains to work on progression?

01/23/2013 09:00 AMPosted by Crithto
We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

The conclusion I draw from your data is that the overwhelming reason people did 25 mans versus 10 mans is because the loot was better. Otherwise if people like 25 mans better they would, I don't know, do 25 mans instead of 10 mans?

In MY opinion this is just another example of blizzard disregarding trends in player activity if it doesn't match how they think we should play and adding incentive to ways we don't want to play to push us back to the way they want us to play. Then in a few months they hold up stats that now agree with them and say see more people are playing the way we want so obviously we know what how the players should be playing.

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