10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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I'm guessing this is the real reason valor upgrade is being removed for 5.2
I have to say, I thought we were getting a controversial change. Instead we are getting a bad one. This change is not beneficial to anyone and hurts 25man raiders more than 10man raiders. As a 25man raider and 25man raid guild leader I can say this change is just 1 more than will lead 25s to their death even sooner.

In the end, I really have to wonder; when will they fire the marine Biologist who clearly has no clue of how to run this game.
We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

25man Raidis Vrs 10man Raids ** Perks and Why 10man Raiders are out of luck**

25 Man Raiding Guilds CAN

1 Ban together and RUN LFR over and over on EASY Mode to work Game MECH
2 More Loot Drops per boss and Now a better chance at getting the Thunderforged Items

10 Man Raiding Guilds Can
1 NEVER get and LFR run to work MECH because that Option is not available for them
2 Get stuck more often then not on Raid Mech because less chances to practice on said boss
3 Blizzard post states that a RARER chance of Thunderforged Items will drop on 10man Vrs 25man

FINAL Note to this fun -- Dedication to a guild is the whole point of team work, but you force peoples hand towards progression by making them choice to go and abandon there guild. To venture into and MOST Of the time the Wolf's Den and choice a new guild to even compete to Progress in Raiding. I love my guild, we stand together and raid well together but it seems that your being ONE SIDED and SINGLE MINDED towards 25man raiding and well -- WOW is not getting any younger but WOW community of Player Base is getting very diverse -- Give us a LFR 10 Man but Put it on LOCK OUT LFR Gear -- If you ran it once... and make it fair
Hate it, because its a veiled lie. Its repackaged 25 man having higher ilevels but throwing a rare chance in 10 man so you can say "they drop there too". Lame blizzard. Lame and sleazy.

Its not going to save 25 mans. Because as much as you like TEH EPIC BATTLES......the players don't. If players really liked 25 mans that much, there would be more of them. They would have found eachother and a way to make it work. But no, they've been in decline. Even when 25 mans flat out had better loot, people still preferred them.
01/23/2013 10:43 PMPosted by Shodinn
1 Ban together and RUN LFR over and over on EASY Mode to work Game MECH

If you die on a boss in 10 man you get to practice the mechanics all over again.
Normal raids have been coming out 1 week earlier than LFR.
I haven't heard of a 25 man guild learning mechanics in LFR.

Getting 25 people together to raid IS harder than getting 10.
10/25 mans are balanced to be as close to the same difficulty as possible and reward the same amount of loot.

Adding a slight... I mean really they are not increasing drops just slightly modifying drop rates for slightly better gear. To encourage more guilds to take the extra responsibility and difficulty of running a 25 man raid makes sense.

I would be curios as to the % of increased chance. I imagine its very small in fact they could leave it the same and say it higher and that in itself will have an effect on 10/25 man raids.

OOh and lastly Who actually compares 10 man progression to 25 man progression.... Pretty sure everyone agrees that no matter how hard blizzard tries some bosses are easier in on some fights for 10 and other fights easier for 25's

Second, the facts are that 25 mans see a lot less sharded items at the start of a new instance because they usually have every type of armor and weapon that drops covered.

I stopped reading right there kid. Cause that is so false its not even funny. Half the reason my guild dropped out of 25 to 10 back in Cata was because you go and kill a boss and see 3 of the same item drop every week.

As to more loot getting used that 100% depends on raid comp. If your 10 man raid doesn't have a proper comp then of course you are going to shard stuff. Just like is a 25 man will shard stuff without a proper comp.

Come up with some "reasons" that make sense and I will believe you are more than a kid.
First, I wanted to say two things. I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC, and know full well what that has entailed the past few years and on a personal level I like this new system. From the perspective of the 25 man raiding point of view however, it is crap. I am going to explain in my own words, though I believe others have said similar or the same things.

First of all, for me personally, the idea of previous bosses still having a chance to drop loot that would be an upgrade to me is really attractive. The number of farm bosses that we kill each week that drop absolutely nothing for me and the raid make those fights in some respects rather average, and simply glorified trash fillers while we get to the boss we are trying to kill.

So my initial reaction as I was reading this post, was of interest and liking the idea. Then I thought about how this would affect the raid and I am very concerned. Two concerns really.

The first concern that I have is that this loot system is no different than the current system just with a higher item level. 25 mans have for some time now, and 10 man raiders will agree, had an easier time gearing people than the 10 mans. Many drops are simply easier to come by in the 25 man version and the number of loot drops has been tuned to make it more likely that 25 man raiders gear faster.

This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version.

What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference. Even the additional loot drop added back in for mists has not helped. So, if you could explain the reasoning you have that this will help the situation I am all ears cause frankly, at the very least case scenario, this does nothing at all to help fix the problem.

Now my second concern is an even greater one. It is this concern that I believe has now convinced me that no one in WoW development actually runs a 25 man guild. And I do not mean participate, but actually do the leg work in the organisational areas such as myself and fellow GL has done the past few years to stay afloat.

See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.

In fact the call on vent for each and every single boss is "Who needs gear off this boss?" - get names then "who doesn't?" and then those people when possible get sat for those people coming in. This works quite well. It gives those players that may be raiding on every boss a break should they choose to do so, or at the very least an opportunity to help fellow raiders out by offering their spot on a boss that no longer drops upgrades for them.

This new system throws that out the window.

Now that there are rare drops that are significant upgrades that drop off these bosses, it is highly unlikely that during progression anyone in the raid is going to have "all the upgrades off that boss". This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

This means that now as GL's we have to decide who sits. We are going to have to come up with some fair way to do so in order to alleviate the concerns of members missing raid bosses which means more work for me and my fellow GL and on top of that it also means that those that we do choose to sit have to have the situation where they have been forcefully sat on bosses that drop gear for them and be unable to choose to participate.

So As far as I can tell, this system will, "best case scenario" have no effect whatsoever on the raid size situation, and the worst case scenario, and one I do not see not happening to be frank, is that you have just single handedly made the running of 25 mans more difficult.

I have to give props to you guys. Never, after waiting years for a response to this situation, and now months of you saying you had ideas in mind, did it occur to me that the situation you were going to try would be so bad that you would actually make matters worse than they already are.

Completely agree with this statement - This change would see yet another logistical burden put on the shoulders of 25 man Guild Leaders, you cant expect a 25 man team with a roster to find a nice way of dealing with this.

Maybe this issue didn't cross Blizzards mind when it was put forth, but I find this very worrying. As the above comment also suggests I am beginning to think Blizzard are falling/ have fallen way out of touch with what 25 mans really need.
01/23/2013 08:04 PMPosted by Bomdanil
As it stands right now they do not gear up faster.

You couldn't be more wrong. 25's have a significantly faster gear rate than 10s because of how RNG favours the larger distribution availability. Compressing a 25m loot table to less than half of its distribution points causes what's essentially a chokepoint for 10's because of how some items have a significantly higher likelyhood of dropping than other items on the loot table (i.e. the cloaks from stone guard).

You couldn't be more wrong. (cwutididthar)

Loot drops is RNG. Some items have a lower chance of dropping than others? Sure, fine, w/e. But they have an equally lower chance of dropping in 10s and 25s. Therfore the 1 to 5 loot ratio still applies evenly. Make a proper raid comp without stacking stronger classes for 10s and you won't have the issue.

01/23/2013 08:29 PMPosted by Elocyn
Maybe they couldn't think of anything to actually help 25 mans

An actual solution would be:

- consolidating realms - to make it even possible to HAVE 25-man guilds, which isn't feasible on many realms (without severely impacting the guild's skill level);

- free character transfers;

- cross-realm raiding.

All of this would eat into their $25 per character revenue from realm transfers. So this is not something they want to do.

Instead, they're trying to add incentives for people to be in 25 man guilds, which for most people, means... paying to transfer.

Holy poop! A smart person!
01/23/2013 09:40 PMPosted by Hyjinx
So do a 25-man raid if that is what is fun to you. Why coerce people into a playstyle that the majority of players don't like anymore or they would still be doing them.

That's not very accurate.

The majority of players may not necessarily like 10m more than 25m. It's just easier in terms of accessibility and difficulty.



This is the only reason my guild ever went to 10 mans. Why put up with the non stop aggravation of constant recruitment and retraining of people and dealing with a 5 man bench and the "I wanna raid now" drama when you can take your 10 most reliable people and raid every raid night with little to no issues?

The biggest issue is that the majority of people crying about 10v25 don't see the issues from the raid leader and guild leaders point of view. The majority of you are only along for the ride. You have little to no clue about what goes on behind the scenes. If you did you would realize that more people are doing 10 over 25s due to logistics, not due to preference.

If I could find a 25 man guild on my server to join I would be in it in a heart beat. But my servers has 0 25 man guilds.

No, I am not paying Blizzard to xfer my toon. My server is dead, just had another 2 guilds xfer off this past month. Why should anyone have to pay to xfer off a dead server? It should get merged or have free xfers. But as someone has already stated, Blizzard won't lose out on their $$.
As an officer in a guild raiding 25mans, I am very pleased to see a proposal from Blizzard to address this issue. Unless you are still running 25mans I do not believe you realize how difficult it has become these days to maintain a solid roster. The logistics of recruiting, and then having to reteach new members your strategies is becoming a serious road block to continued progression. The difficulty gap between the two has been greatly reduced as blizzard gets better at encounter design and tuning, but as long as there are mechanics that one player messing up at cause on instant wipe (a very frequent mechanic, particulary in heroic mode content) I will continue to argue that 25mans are more difficult from a progression point to view. Encounter by encounter 25s or 10s may be more difficult, but it is much more difficult to progress through raiding content in a 25 man format.
They never should have made 10 mans get the same loot at 25 mans. It was a stupid idea then, and it was stupid on the Cata PTR, it was stupid through Cata, It wiped out ALL incentive to do 25 mans.

This is a good change, but make 25 mans drop better gear across the board again.
YAYY soo now all the 10 man raids can drop and we can quit playing all together, most of the top guilds are 25 man soo this is bull!@#$ and honestly really stupid, people play 10 mans because not everyone waste money on 10million graphics cards
As already mentioned repeatedly by others, this creates very little incentive for guilds to stay 25-man or move up from a 10-man format (if that is truly the motive), while actually creating MORE logistical issues for those who manage/run the guild. The increased difficulty with 25-man guilds has always been an issue centered around the people willing to manage them, not the players themselves liking/disliking the format.

You are creating a situation where there are perpetual upgrades, more ambiguity on how to gear, and overall more difficulties handling a bench and managing rosters.

People throughout this thread with experience leading guilds (including many active GLs) have been very clear that the cost/benefit is not at all as advertised. The negatives it could potentially create really do not outweigh the incentives/positives. I really hope you take those posts to heart.

I am quite surprised at this decision. I know GC had mentioned it was controversial, but in the end it seems like the only controversy is with the 25-man guilds themselves... who are supposedly gaining from this change. Is this really what you expected..?

The vagueness of the proposed differences between the two formats is also concerning. With a line already 2.5 times longer for each piece of loot, it would need to be more than "slightly" better to accommodate. Much greater. When the change is described as a "small average guild ilvl increase over several weeks" it is concerning. It almost feels as if this could actually drive people to 10-man for less headaches and only "slightly" reduced chances. It is so much simpler there, every Thunderforged item will have 1 maybe 2 people it could go to....

It feels like this is pretty half baked. A way to pretend to return to the previous system of 25-mans receiving higher ilvl loot, without actually doing it. At the same time the motives just seem blurred, is this truly to create incentive for 25-man raiding? Or is it really to make farming "more interesting" for every format. Honestly, it feels similar to other changes made in MoP to prop up dallies, such as valor upgrades and charms. I can't help but feel like the real focus is on the latter, since there are such glaring issues with the logistics of gear distribution, which is already more than challenging for guilds. In the end it all seems very disingenuous.

I really hope this proposal is entirely dropped and something more straightforward is implemented. Something that does not just add to one of the more frustrating parts of the game. I am one of those who it is supposedly going to help, and I want no part of it..
They never should have made 10 mans get the same loot at 25 mans. It was a stupid idea then, and it was stupid on the Cata PTR, it was stupid through Cata, It wiped out ALL incentive to do 25 mans.

This is a good change, but make 25 mans drop better gear across the board again.

I dont think Blizz would want to lose the subs that this would bring about. Its a door that can never be closed again and they know it.
For a lot of the 25s that are left, recruitment is a !@#$% let alone dealing with the four or five whiney bench warmers and carrying some ^-*! players just to fill a raid. That is why 10 mans are so much better to the vast majority of players that raid, you dont have to deal with all the bull@#$%. At this point, if you change the loot back to how it was for 10 man compared to 25, then I think more than a few will just not bother at all, I know I wouldnt.
The problem with 25man's being so low in popularity is not logistics, or it's more work on officers cause it's not:

25man you just have more people running things than 1 or 2 do in 10man's therre 2.5x the amount of people after all, maybe they all just expect other to take care of things.

It's not flasks or feast i don't see the 25mn feast requiring double the mats they still on require 1x 100 year old soy sauce like 10mans do, and individuals supply their owns flasks anyway, which if what blizzard want when they ditched cauldrons.

It's not that it requires more substitutes to fill empty raids spots.

The PROBLEM is the MORE people the MORE ego clashes you have, and ultimately that is why back in the day 40 man raiding was so hard. In a 10man ego's come out earlier and can be dealt with.

Unlike 25mans they go off and whinge to their own little group of friends in the guild, and then 2 months later there's a 7+ player exodus because they don't like "How things are run"

As blizzard likes to say this is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Nobody likes to log on and put up with all the guild drama associated with keeping 24 other people happy

Decide how you want the gameplay to feel and stay with it, you introduced 10man's you can't give them the shorter end of the stick because you don't want to lose 25man's.
Either removed 10man's altogether or keep them the same and let people choose how they want to raid.
Don't keep saying 25man's are logistically harder to run cause it's bull!@#$
Why not this? Right now the devs have made it so there is an estranged random style loot chance in Thunder Throne, and that can be frustrating for a lot of people. As a leader for a 10man guild I know people are going to be conflicted on what to do at all because of this. So a few guildies and I had an idea for the fix;

Whenever a piece drops no one wants that is a non-jewel and non-tier piece, you can take it to an npc to have it salvaged. This gives you a number of BoP items that are gathered which can be used to upgrade an item to Thunderforged.

Basically; an item drops, say a weapon, non-tier chest, boots, any piece that isn't rings, necklace, trinkets, or the tier pieces, you can take it to an npc and have it salvaged to say 1 Thunderforge Shard for armor pieces and 2 Thunderforge Shards for weapon pieces. You then build up to, say, 25 or 50 shards (It's Blizzard's choice) to upgrade your item into Thunderforge. The number has to be high enough to not entice players to just load a person up to make his stuff Thunderforge.

Basically you are looking at this;
  • 25 man you already gear your group pretty quickly. When an item drops that no one needs, that is non-jewel and non-tier, you send it to a player who dkp bids/rolls for it for salvaging.
  • For 10 man, loot that isn't needed in the group, say like your group doesn't have a holy paladin, that holy gear can actually go to some practical use.

  • You could turn this into a gold sink, make it maybe 200g? 500g? 1000g? per salvage. Your decision.
  • You can make heroic salvaging of items drop 2x? 3x? 4x? as many shards. Your choice.
  • You could even add a valor cost to this to cap people from building it exceedingly quick.
  • You could also keep the bonus roll having the ability to just GIVE a Thunderforged item. Since you already sometimes bonus roll to get an item the boss has JUST dropped, this would be exactly the same.
  • You could make weapons not salvageable as well, so jewels, tier pieces, and weapons cannot be salvaged. As long as armor stays salvageable, and the gain is at a steady pace, Thunderforged salvaging+creation will still be considered as smooth progression.
    FOR ENCHANTERS: This does not deal away with the purpose of being an enchanter. All this does is make it take longer before items that are not salvageable are dealt with disenchantment. Instead of like now, how most of my raiders don't need anything from normal mode, and we've been raiding since about MoP started, it'll take maybe 2x or 3x as long before items become useless. Plus, useless non-salvageable items will still be disenchanted.

    This lessens the negative effects of RNG and benefits both 10 and 25 man groups heavily. This also makes 25 man much easier and quicker to gear, because 25 man, as I could imagine, will certainly have multitudes more to DE from a single encounter after having repeatedly defeating the encounter. Instead, the undesired/unneeded loot could be used for the salvaging for Thunderforged, if there are salvageable pieces.

  • The current RNG heavy system will now have an additional time building effort system.
  • Enchanters will no longer be spam DEing old items that you've seen repeatedly and not needed.
  • This isn't a quick way to upgrade for raids, but a slow and steady progression.
  • 25 man will get Thunderforged items quicker, as they already get more loot as it is.
  • 10 man items that are TOTALLY useless to the group will actually benefit someone.

    All the end decisions are in Blizzard's hands, but I think this is a brilliant way to deal with loot. This idea is in addition to the system that was said - I am not asking for the retraction of that system. I am saying that this would be a way to remove some of the RNG out of it. This idea is a supplement to the current Thunderforge system, so that progression can be made at a steady pace along with the RNG chance.
    Would be even better if you allowed for 10 / 25 man lockouts again during each lockout period.

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