10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.

How is that any different than it is today? 25s should gear people faster than 10s because of the additional drops. Take off the tag thunderforged and give these items a new name and all this is doing is increasing the items on the drop table.

It just seems like a new shiny tag on gear that makes people think they want to put effort into setting up/look for 25s when really they just get the same system with a different green text under the item name.

Maybe I am missing something?
01/24/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Shaniqua
All I've gotten out of this thread is that the people who want to coast on the ease of 10m raiding are upset that the scales are being tipped back towards 25m. Seriously, 10m raiding is a joke. Coming from a 25m guild we have gone to doing 10m MV because a handful of people need things from there. 10m Heroic Will of the Emperor... a complete joke. 10m guilds have no problem getting the same gear for less effort and swiping realm firsts for less effort, but when 25m gets offered an edge everyone throws their hands up and starts screaming about what's fair. Working your !@# off in a 25m progression guild only to have realm first taken by a 10m guild because the fights are easier on 10m is pretty fair...

You ever stop to think that the reason you can't cut it as a 25 is because you have too much fat? And when you step down to do 10s you typically take the best players, the best comp, and the best gear?

I used to do 25s, but got sick of the people who couldn't carry their weight. Too much of a hassle.

Edit: Regardless, this change has nothing to do with the difficulty of 10 or 25, it has to do with the silliness that is a !@#$ing humongous loot table that will make it difficult to manage the overflow of raiders (because everyone knows not a single raid can get by with exactly 10 or 25 raiders). It doesn't even solve the problem. No 10 man raider will see this change and move to 25s.
At this point, I think the best solution would be to make raids scalable based on the number of people present. In other words, a raid could go in and down content assuming they had any number of people between 10 and 25 (or 40, if you're feeling ambitious, but I'd understand if Blizzard thinks that ship has sailed).

25m guilds would no longer be pressured into folding / downsizing to 10m just because they experience a temporary dip below an arbitrary roster size, and 10m guilds would be able to gradually build themselves up to the maximum allowable raid size more freely than they can today (which is almost impossible to coordinate without gathering a large sum of money to dump simultaneously (server transfers)).

At the same time, you could provide a number of incentives to encourage the building up of larger guilds (e.g. realm firsts / feasts of strength awarded for completing the content at the maximum size). They shouldn't be anything mandatory (like power discrepancies), but they shouldn't be meaningless, either.
[quote="77082090454"]lol, okay, how about I argue that it's complete BS that 25s can afford to have several people simply ignore the mechanic because its not a wipe if 4-5 ppl in a 25 screw up unseen strike?

Or you can just show how naive you really are and take any credibility away from any post you made.

At a lower % hp, ie higher boss stacks, a single missing person from our collapse has led to my death quite a few times when I am healing. Obviously we have a cd up for it but the damage is harsh on 25s, much more so than you think.
Since I'm presumably in the target audience for this change, I'll just add my data point.

As a RL of a semi-hardcore 25-man guild (5/16hm), I can say the reaction of my guildies has pretty much been "Well, I guess that's kind of neat. Did you see the latest post in the NSFW forum?" As someone who distributes loot, I'm just going to go bang my head against a wall. The sentiment's been expressed very well in many posts, so I won't belabor it beyond affirming that this will just be another headache in 25-man logistics.

I also think it's worth noting that our guild almost collapsed at start of the xpac. We had enough people willing to stick it out to push recruitment over a period of months, because we like raiding 25-man, and so do the people we recruited.

With that in mind, if you really want us to keep raiding 25man, just give us recognition for doing it. Separate the 10-man and 25-man achievements. We LIKE raiding 25-man, but there are those weak moments where we say 'this would be so much easier to organize on 10man'. A separate achievement is a meaningless cookie that would taste so good. (Shiny 25-man only mounts would taste even better, though.)

Also want to give a shout-out to those who called for just making raiding less of a pain to organize in general. Cauldrons, summons, 300 stat feasts (make 'em expensive, we don't care!), the ability to actually valor cap/get tokens by doing what we like to do... poof, you've made life as a 25-man guild that much easier*, and therefore more attractive. Isn't that your goal here?

My guildies are much more concerned about the pressure to reroll as Horde (Troll) in 5.2, the massive faction imbalance on our server, and the complete inability to find a pug raid for our alts than any random chance to maybe get an slightly upgraded item.

* This would obviously benefit 10man guilds too. But their feasts should apply a shameful debuff to remind them that 25-man raiders are clearly just more awesome. :D
The only thing that will make any 10man raider go up to 25man is when 25mans present a clear advantage in some way. There is no way to make it 'fair'. No amount of perks given to 25mans in terms of things like guild cauldrons, easy food buffs, etc., basically things that would make the prep easier and thus the officer/gm's life easier would make a raider switch raid sizes. So all this debate of 'oh that's giving them better stuff than us' is kind of the point, otherwise IT'S NOT AN INCENTIVE. What happened when people didn’t have to do 25s for the best gear, they broke down into easier 10s (and no !@#$ty casual 10man raider is going to convince me 10s are harder, they aren’t, get over it, there's a reason the top guilds are 25man, it's more prestigious cause it's harder and takes more skill.) So blizzard, revert back to the wrath style lockout/gear system problem solved, needs no more thought than that.
01/24/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Primalshock
it's harder and takes more skill

The extra difficulty is organizing the extra players in the same space and coordinating more cooldowns. It does not take more skill: it takes more management.

And yes, if they want 25s to thrive they need to stop tip-toeing around the issue and make 25s the premier tier or else this trend will continue. They need to recognize if they try to be fair it won't make a difference. Either that or give up. These little things aren't controversial and they aren't going to convince people to head back to 25s.
If you actually want to make 25s less of a terrible PITA for the raid leaders, don't do a change that is a minor benefit to 25 man raiding and makes things more annoying in the meantime, fix things that make it suck to lead a 25 man (which all make 10 man raiding better too, but by less of an extreme just due to scale):

-Bring back cauldrons
-Bring back feasts that don't suck
-Make Party Grenades not interrupt eating
-Make swapping groups in non-boss combat work again
-Make a potion dispensing robot or something
-Reforge bot that works in non mountable places
-Make it so we can actually swap glyphs and talents between fights without having to wait for 25 people to reload a few times until it magically lets them swap talents.
-Give people a 30 day money back return server transfer option so it's easier to recruit cross server because people don't have to commit to paying and transferring until they're sure they'll like the new guild.
-Make it so when a raider takes a bunch of stuff from the bank and gquits, the guild can reclaim it so officers can let people get stuff out of the bank without fear of it being stolen. That way officers don't have to do every little thing with the bank.
-Put in the other 3 floating lucky charms
-Spectator mode so people that are sitting out can have some clue. Even if it was literally they couldn't move, all they could do was see the same camera view as another raid member without having to setup streaming clients and such.
-Valor points for people sitting out
-Maybe even being able to assign loot to people sitting out. Would make selling loot so much less of a pain, and could get the people that you wanted to have the experience in, rather than the people that need loot. This would be even more important if this terrible Thunderforging idea goes live.
-The many CDs that don't reset on kill or wipe for no apparent reason resetting too
-Mass rez debuff shortened / being able to be mass rezzed even if you released.
-A portal at the end of the raid instance to the other raid instances in that tier.
-My guild suggested letting officers punch people through their monitors, but i think that falls into the realm of things the GMs will say are a technical limitation that they'd have to invest additional resources and such.
-I suppose an RTS style console for raid leaders to position people pre-pull is out of the question too?
This would not encourage me to do 25's. It reads like a last ditch triage to attempt and slow the death of the patient.

I think (my opinion) on the largest pop servers, 25s still exist. Existing 25s will be thrilled and it might help them maintain standing ... a little. But, as Blues CONSTANTLY remind us, we can't make a general assertion about what will happen or others might like or might not like.

The facts I can say... on my (medium - med/low) server, all the 25s are gone. There are none.

If the goal is to move the pendulum back toward 25-mans means you will be putting a lot of tanks back into other roles back from a 2:25 (8%) vs. 2:10 (20%) ratio. So, depending on how many guilds try to go back to 25-mans, you will be upsetting a lot of tanks.

Seeing that 5-mans are a 20% ratio, the 10-man format is a better fit.

I think the only thing we can do is "hide-n-watch" and see what happens. But I can say for sure this won't change things for me.

-My guild suggested letting officers punch people through their monitors, but i think that falls into the realm of things the GMs will say are a technical limitation that they'd have to invest additional resources and such.

This is the best idea ever displayed on the forums.
01/24/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Rollee
-Give people a 30 day money back return server transfer option so it's easier to recruit cross server because people don't have to commit to paying and transferring until they're sure they'll like the new guild.

Probably the best idea I've seen in a while. Though I would rather just see them do something else to fix the underlying problem (server population issues) this at least alleviates the pain of anyone who would actually like to try 25s on a larger server but aren't sure if it's a good fit.
For the record, this is that point in the expansion where you guys have some arbitrary system put in that a year from now you will say "Yeah, it probably wasn't a great idea to implement that at this time.". You can stop that future from happening by not going through with this!

Oh, add to my list of things that would actually make leading raids less terrible, instead of trying to prop them up with random incentives:

-Remove Coins at least from 25 man. Or like, let a guild contribute 10 elder coins to just make 1 more item drop from the boss in a normal fashion, rather than this terrible coin thing. In a 25 man loot system, a few people getting super lucky really screws loot up for everyone. Like don't get me wrong, I'd rather have the extra loot in the raid, than not have it, but there's no reason it should have to screw things up by introducing personal loot rolls into an organized loot system.
For the record, this is that point in the expansion where you guys have some arbitrary system put in that a year from now you will say "Yeah, it probably wasn't a great idea to implement that at this time.". You can stop that future from happening by not going through with this!


This is one of the major problems with the evolution of this game. The change lag between their "experiments" and the reaction to that experiment is so long that every change ends up being

"make group A happy and make group B unhappy".... later with an oops... let's change it back toward what we had...

"makes group A VERY unhappy and makes B slighly less unhappy"... numbers reports drop and the forums are on fire... they try to change things such that they don't completely go back to something old.... and...

"makes all groups thinking Blizzard is clueless and fear the next change as the are in the mode of just acceptance and hope".

Some days I think Blizzard should just close the forums and create... and we just get surprised.
For reference: I highly doubt that this post will be read or received well. I am a semi-hardcore 10m raider, currently raid leading and guild leading in T14. I have experience with 10, 25 and 40 man raiding over the past 7+ years, in all spectrum... from uber-casual to raiding alongside US Top 25 raiders.

Here is my $0.02 on this whole idea:

Firstly, I don't think that this form of incentive is going to have an "appropriate" success rate in migrating players back to 25m raiding. In glancing over the past few pages of posts, it seems like players are heavily divided on this issue. I'm sure 25m players see this as a boon, given to them for all of the hard work they do coordinating a 25m roster, organizing the players and forming a cohesive strategy, and executing it properly. Likewise, I'm sure most 10m players will cry that the system is being unfair to them.

Given this attitude, and the tendency of this game (and almost all others) to migrate towards the "easy" path, I do not foresee an overwhelming amount of 10m players abandoning their current efforts to join a 25m team. I do not foresee this strengthening the pool of available applicants to 25m guilds, I see it potentially weakening it.

In the current model, players migrate to wherever they fit best. If you have less feeling of personal responsibility, you might select a 25m guild so that you can get carried past your own ability level. If you have a desire to be the only one of your class or gearset, you might choose 10m.

These are just some of the reasons people choose 10 over 25 or vice versa, but eliminating the gear discrepancy (as far as ilvl) was a good thing. Trying to reintroduce that, with some RNG thrown in to make the system seem less disparate, is probably not going to have the desired effect.

So that is enough about 10 vs 25, now let's talk about Thunderforged itself.

I think this system is flawed at its core. The RNG basis for getting gear is already strong enough, further convolution of the process by adding a second layer of RNG is only going to frustrate the majority of players (I would assume). The prospect of obtaining better gear from a boss (say through Council style mechanics, a la Iron Council in Ulduar or Protectors Elite in ToES) makes sense when there is some mechanic to change the loot table (ostensibly the boss being harder). It also makes sense somewhat for end-tier bosses, like with Ragnaros and Deathwing.

Here is the nail in the coffin for me: Upgrading. (DISCLAIMER: I know upgrading will be gone in 5.2, but is slated to return in 5.3. If that is the case, than Thunderforged items would exist in the game with upgrading.)

Hypothetical scenario. Let's say that Thunderforged existed in T14. As soon as I get my Heroic [insert weapon here], I'm going to upgrade it from 509 to 517. But wait, shouldn't I wait for the 515 version to drop so I can upgrade it to 523? Having Thunderforged items in game at all is pushing the boundaries of RNG, but if you throw in the upgrading feature then it gets even more confusing.

Players will be frustrated that they feel they have to cap valor before upgrading, just to see if maybe *next week* they get the Heroic Thunderforged flavor of their favorite item. I do the same thing now, I wait for a new 509 before upgrading, and I've felt bad about upgrading non BiS loot just because our progression wasn't there at the time of 5.1 release.

An afterthought:

Especially in 25m guilds, I can see this being the source of much loot drama. Let's say a star player gets a regular heroic piece one week. The next week, the Stormforged version of the item drops. This item is BiS and incredibly rare (being Stormforged and RNG what it is), so do the raid leaders decide to give this item to their star Rogue (for the second week in a row) since he will never replace it? Or do they give it to a less desirable candidate for BiS gear because he has something slightly similar? These decisions will be tough, and as if loot didn't cause enough drama for most players in this game, this will certainly add some fire to the... thing that gets fire added to it, I'm out of witty metaphors.

For the record:

I am somewhat (pleasantly) surprised with how much I enjoy the game in it's current iteration. I think that over the years since release and Vanilla, the game has certainly had its opportunity to polish itself. Some mistakes were made, but other features have risen up to shine. Blizzard continues to evolve this game, and there will be many changes in the future. I personally think that this change would be a mistake, but if it is and it happens, then I am sure Blizzard (as well as all of us in the playerbase) will learn from it. I think that the upgrading system is a better way to allow players to continue to see return on their gear even after they have gotten the drops, though I think some changes could be made to polish that system up as well.

I hope that wasn't too jumbled and I got my point across. This will be buried anyway, but maybe a blue will read it or maybe enough other share my concern.
25 already have the advantage of more loot, to be honest.

I have raided 10man strictly since Cata. I prefer it, but frankly, the loot in 10 is just frustrating. Every teir the raid struggles for drops for weapons, tinkets, shields. I know it's RNG, but every teir we struggle for the same pieces, while we DE all the extra chests and pants and helms that drop once people have teir. 25man, with its extra loot drops from the same tables, never had that problem.

What would be nice in general is if there were, in general, more weapons and trinkets and the such. Because set bonus' are so powerful, we all end up going for those, thus making the tables flush with excess.

As for the question of 25 vs 10, I doubt you'll ever see 25 return to being the preferred raid unless you split loot tables and raid lockouts again. I don't actually mind that--25s are a hassle to run, have more interpersonal drama, and were just in general more stress than it was worth. Always preferred 10s to it, really, for that point.
Bad call. Only need to look back to the beginning of Lich King to see how creating a gear gap in PvE makes tuning and balancing encounters for two different gearing tracks almost impossible.

10 man sartharion+3 in only 10-man gear might have been theoretically possible, but nobody ever did it, despite it being on the 10-man progression path.

Making an upgrade an incredibly rare drop will only create frustration, and that frustration will be voiced, and players will tell frustrated players "if you really cared about progression, you'd get the best gear possible by raiding 25 mans" and we'll be right back where we were in Lich King.

Either commit to 10 mans as an equally valid progression path, or don't.

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