10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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The only thing that will save 25 man raiding is free server xfers. The main problem is recruitment and management. The problem is not related to game mechanics or gameplay. Its an out of game management problem. The reason all the top guilds are 25 man in the US is because they have an army of people managing, recruiting in a massive outside of raids effort.


Spoken like someone who has actually had to recruit. What you said is 100% the issue; our tools to recruit are archaic and frankly pathetic. If the content is based on arranging large groups of people to be somewhere at a certain place and time then we need the tools to do this, both in game and outside of game.
Actual solution: Move the designer folks who are adamant about 25m to another project/mmo. Make uniform 15m raids, and show us the benefit of not having twice the encounter turning by improving the quantity/quality of raids


or, abolish 10s and stick to 25s only.
This is an absurd change. 25 mans have historically had way better loot because they have better chances at RNG. In 25 man raiding simply having 5 pieces of loot drop meant you had higher chances of the one item you needed dropping. That's incredible. But it didn't stop there. In Firelands and other raid tiers (mostly Cata), 25 mans got -6- pieces of loot and often -3- tier tokens. 3 tier tokens means people getting 4 piece much faster. That's -also- huge. 25 mans do not need this advantage.

The simple solution is this: Blizzard needs 15 man raids, content with a static number of tanks, preferably a static number of healers, and a majority of DPS. When is Blizzard going to learn that tanking SUCKS !@#? My tanks in Firelands complained SO much that tanking sucked. And then you have fights like Halfus that were just retarded difficult in 10s and retarded easy in 25s.

I have never had a bigger head ache leading a guild than trying to recruit a tank with an off set and a healer with an off set. Hell, Firelands had -1- fight you 3 healed, and it was Beth'talac but even then I am convinced if we had enough hybrid self healing classes we could have 2 healed it (ret pally, spriest, cat druid, warlock, another warlock, a 3rd warlock because warlocks).

The problem with 25s is this game is so poorly designed that the majority of non-hard core guilds can't stand playing with lazy people. That's what it comes down to. 25s inevitably have dead weight and you -have- to bring them. That's why people are migrating to 10s. But you can't even get 10s right. They're a -joke-. I wish you could make 15s. 3 healers, 1 or 2 tanks (NOT BOTH DO YOU @#$%ING HEAR ME? NOT BOTH YOU STUPID FAIL AT LIFE MORONS!) and 10 dps. Finally! 10s will have a diverse and steady group of healers (always 3, not sometimes 2, not maybe 4, -3-) plenty of dps to cover -all buffs- (DO YOU @#$%ING HEAR ME YOU FAIL DEVELOPERS, ALL BUFFS I WANT ALL GOD DAMN BUFFS SO MAYBE YOU CAN PROPERLY CODE AND BALANCE YOUR GOD DAMN GAME) and finally a static amount of tanks. I'm sure 1 is fine. Lets be honest you just don't make fun tank fights often enough to justify 2. So give up. You want a 2 tank fight? You want a 2 tank fight. Require a hunter or warlock to tank and CALL IT A DAY.

Thank you now. Now kill yourself. Ooops! Not allowed to say that. Dear Blizzard and all Blizzard employees, if you weren't committing suicide on my account. Stop. Do not feel the need to prolong your death on my account. You may freely kill yourself at any point. It is the only honorable thing to do. That or fix your god damn game. I don't care which but so we're clear, I've got a gun you can borrow. @#$%! You can just keep it.
This is an absurd change. 25 mans have historically had way better loot because they have better chances at RNG.

Then maybe you should read the thread and realize that every single 25-man poster is saying this change is stupid.

Didn't bother to read your wall of text since you wouldn't bother to read the two of 48 pages of text.
This is an absurd change. 25 mans have historically had way better loot because they have better chances at RNG. In 25 man raiding simply having 5 pieces of loot drop meant you had higher chances of the one item you needed dropping. That's incredible. But it didn't stop there. In Firelands and other raid tiers (mostly Cata), 25 mans got -6- pieces of loot and often -3- tier tokens. 3 tier tokens means people getting 4 piece much faster. That's -also- huge. 25 mans do not need this advantage.

The simple solution is this: Blizzard needs 15 man raids, content with a static number of tanks, preferably a static number of healers, and a majority of DPS. When is Blizzard going to learn that tanking SUCKS !@#? My tanks in Firelands complained SO much that tanking sucked. And then you have fights like Halfus that were just retarded difficult in 10s and retarded easy in 25s.

I have never had a bigger head ache leading a guild than trying to recruit a tank with an off set and a healer with an off set.


Kind of agree with this. The two size system is crap and I always hate being stuck in the hybrid position. Change to one raid size and balance better and keep number of required tanks and heals consistent from a design standpoint. Sure there will be hardcore raids progressing in early heroic content that try to swap a healer for a dps but overall it should be geared to same raid composition from boss to boss.
01/24/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Proletari
The only thing that will save 25 man raiding is free server xfers. The main problem is recruitment and management. The problem is not related to game mechanics or gameplay. Its an out of game management problem. The reason all the top guilds are 25 man in the US is because they have an army of people managing, recruiting in a massive outside of raids effort.


Spoken like someone who has actually had to recruit. What you said is 100% the issue; our tools to recruit are archaic and frankly pathetic. If the content is based on arranging large groups of people to be somewhere at a certain place and time then we need the tools to do this, both in game and outside of game.


Unfortunately it won't happen because the devs, or GC at any rate, seem(s) to be genuinely convinced that recruitment difficulties aren't why 25's are having trouble. Until they pull their head out of the sand and realise that "moar loot" isn't the fix for 25's the changes that do need to happen are going to be a long way off.
They never should have made 10 mans get the same loot at 25 mans. It was a stupid idea then, and it was stupid on the Cata PTR, it was stupid through Cata, It wiped out ALL incentive to do 25 mans.

This is a good change, but make 25 mans drop better gear across the board again.


So tell me, if 25 mans need extra incentive to be done, then why do they need to exist? Shouldn't "TEH EPIC BATTELZ WITH 24 OF YOUR FRIENDS" be alluring? Shouldn't the extra loot be alluring? Shouldn't the prestige that people claim comes with 25 man be alluring? It obviously isn't or else 25 mans wouldn't be in trouble.

People need no incentive to do 10 mans. Even before the gear equalization, people were preferring 10 mans and the cries of "25 mans are dying!" despite 10 mans dropping inferior gear during wrath. So the "gear equalization ruined everything" is pure bunk. Since the decline was happening way before it happened.

But this is going to happen, and no amount of objection is going to stop blizzard. Why? Because its what THEY want, 25 mans are what THEY like. So here is a prediction. The loot changes will go in. The 25 raiders will cheer and say "25 man raiding is saved". Some people will be drawn in doing 25 man raiding. I may even go so far as to say 25 man raiding will go up slightly faster than its decline.....for a while. But even if it does go up, which I doubt, it will go back down and 25 mans will go back to their decline and both blizzard and the 25 mans raiders will be scratching their heads wondering why oh why didn't it work?

Because 25 mans are more trouble than they are worth in MANY aspects, and it has nothing to do with loot.
01/23/2013 09:09 AMPosted by Hoveround
I like it, throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in - why not it'll be lower ilevel than normal anyways.


No. Please no. LFR is a way to see content, not get geared.


I don't know how many times I've seen that misconception reiterated. Here's a reminder from http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4023602 :
Q.Who is Raid Finder for?
A. Raid Finder is primarily intended for players who don’t already raid consistently. These are players who may not have had the opportunity to take part in raid content due to scheduling conflicts, playtime constraints, limited access to other raid-capable players, or a lack of experience with higher-end content. These players may want to experience World of Warcraft’s raid content and storyline without being able to commit to the additional time investment of a raiding guild. The Raid Finder is also a great way to quickly and easily gear up alternate characters without having to worry about raid lockouts.


That was made clear before LFR actually went live. LFR has always been to see content and to get geared.

01/23/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Virtutis
I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC
An informed opinion. Let's hear it.

01/23/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Virtutis
See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear.


This is absolutely consistent with my own experiences in 10-man raiding guilds too. This week we effectively missed two raiding nights because emergencies came up or a couple of people didn't show up. It doesn't matter if 8 people are interested in doing a 10-man raid. If only those 8 show up then 0 people are raiding that night.

01/23/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Virtutis
This new system throws that out the window.


This is the most compelling argument I've seen in this thread against that system. The new system is effectively depriving raiding guilds of their opportunity to gear back-up raiders. This will impact 10-man guilds to some extent, but the impact will be even greater on 25-man guilds. Instead of boosting participation in 25-man raids, this system is stifling it further.

In my opinion the problem with this system is not the loot. As Lisanna pointed out:

If the 25-mans don't get at minimum 2.5 items for every 1 item 10-mans get, then 10-mans gear up faster because they have fewer people to gear up. Thus, a drop rate difference is essentially a meaningless thing in a lot of ways.


Guess what? The 25-mans get 3 items for every 1 item 10-mans get right now, and 25-man raiders are still not happy. This current proposal is just taking an incentive that is already known to have failed one step further.

In my experience the death of 25-mans came in Cataclysm with the guild achievement system. In WotLK I was in a guild that had about 18 active raiders. My guild leader had a friend who lead a guild with about 10 active raiders. Between the two of them they picked out a good 25-man raid composition from amongst those 28 players and we were off. The new system discourages that. When I help another guild with their raid I am effectively removing myself from the pool of potential raiders for the rest of the week. I'm basically depriving my guild mates of their new pet because I want to help out a buddy in a different guild. Blizzard needs to provide incentives to change that. I think that adding cross-guild achievements would go a long way towards that. For example we could have achievements like:

Defeat all the bosses in 25-man [some raid] with at least 10 guild members in the group.

This imposes similar requirements to what we currently have (i.e. recruit ~10 raiders) while encouraging participation in 25-man content. Now when I work with my friend from a neighboring guild I'm not betraying anyone; I'm part of a win-win collaboration between our two guilds. If the achievement also unlocked a pet and/or mount you would see 25-man participation skyrocket. Also now the guild wouldn't need a set amount of raiders to get their pet/mount rewards; they could bring 10-15 raiders and still everyone would still be happy.

I know Blizzard likes inter-guild competition, but let's think about that for a minute. This isn't Guild Wars. The conflict in WoW is supposed to be Alliance vs Horde, not Guild vs Guild. We should be encouraged to work with guilds from our faction, but right now we are encouraged to compete against them. The guild achievement system has effectively fractured the realm communities into small 10-man cliques, and the death of 25-man raiding is an unfortunate consequence of this change.
01/23/2013 09:04 AMPosted by Nightsbane
throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in


No
01/25/2013 12:36 AMPosted by Kudí
throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in


No
At first I thought, "Why not?" but then I remembered all the QQ that we're seeing right now because players aren't getting their Sha-touched weapons after "8 whole attempts!!!" To be honest I can't say I'm thrilled about reading a slew of QQ posts about people who have been "deprived" of their Thunderforged gear despite faithfully running LFR for 2 whole months. So I guess I'll concede that Thunderforged gear in LFR might not be such a great idea.
01/23/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Crithto
Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.


Well, it that 25-30 people reap the rewards while 3-5 people get saddled with extra work. All of those people want do 25 man raids but none of them want to actually be the ones to to lead a 25 man raiding guild. A lot of people like the sense of intimacy, the not having to carry other players, that comes with a small roster. I like the sociability of a large guild but boy do I hate actually trying to get something done with that many people.

Also, take a step back from the big name high pop servers and you won't even be able to find enough competent raiders to field more than one successful team per faction, if that. Server and faction transfers have made the rich get richer and poor get poorer as it comes to distributing skilled players over time. Low and medium pop servers have needed some consolidation and revitalizing of their communities for a very long time.
I'm glad Blizzard will address the 25 vs 10 man incentives. I had to abandon my first server because all of the 25 man guilds dissolved into 10s. Understanding that Blizz wont do what is happening on Asian servers, having a slightly better chance at Thunderdome stuff sounds fine by me.

+1 from a 25 man raiding veteran.
Guess what? The 25-mans get 3 items for every 1 item 10-mans get right now, and 25-man raiders are still not happy. This current proposal is just taking an incentive that is already known to have failed one step further.


So if you think the grass is greener, why aren't you running 25s? Remember we get 1 extra piece of loot. The rest is the same ratio. So that argument of yours goes out the window.

I'm not an officer or GM of the 25 man I am in, and even I'm protesting against the thunderforged idea like most other 25 man raiders because it makes things worse. It discourages being benched on farm fights because of that chance to get a better item. But your reasoning is just asinine.

If the extra piece of loot is an incentive, why are 25s dying? It's because it's magnitudes easier to get 9 extra people to show up and raid than it is 24 + enough people to fill a 10 man as a bench.

People moved to 10 mans because it was easier... simple as. Less people to screw up, less people to manage, less people to rotate in and out. Most 10 man guilds don't have a bench, and the raiding population is getting spread thinner and thinner. The merging of lockouts was the biggest culprit. But 25 mans should not have been sacrificed to boost 10 mans at the start of cata....
Moo.

Random chance +6 ilevel bonuses seem pretty boring and really won't have any effect on boosting 25man raids.

In my opinion you need to look at raid infrastructure. The problem 25man raids have is when they can't fill composition wise. A 25man raid needs to keep a larger bench than a 10man guild.

So in this case look outside the box and find ways to make it easier coordination wise for 25man raid groups.

For instance:

Make a 25man baseline raid 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps.

Say a couple healers are out, instead of forcing the 25man raid to carry three or four benched healers on a regular basis, allow them to five-heal the encounter.

2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps. But give the raid a +10% bonus to healing taken.

Say a lot of dps are out but all the healers are on. Let the raid do that.

2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps. Give the raid a +5% damage bonus.


This helps the 25man raid groups work around trying to keep their roster viable to raid with without having to have such a large bench.


And you do not think that would be exploited in any way by 25s using additional healers or dps on certain fights to gain the bonus. 10s are in a similar shape especially when you have a tank or healer that are out and you have to run with OS alternatives. Frankly the incentive needs to come from the guild themselves since it is the guild who decides to run 25s over 10s. This is not Blizzards responsibility and unless the drops rates are not that noticeably different or they, like a poster earlier said increase 10s drops to 3 or at least for tier drops, if 25s see a significantly larger amounts of Thunderforged items you will see the out rage since it is much more favorable to run 25s for gear for the same level of challenge.

Over all I like the change. It will not make us move to 25s since we like the 10s format better. But I just harken back to the forums of yesteryear where when all we saw were unfair threads over raiding.
I think the real question we have to come back to is why do you need to provide incentives to 25s, anyhow?

There used to be 40 raids. There aren't anymore. Some people miss them, and that's fair, and some people make level 60 guilds to run it. But by and large, the player based has moved on from it. Mostly, the player base is moving away from 25s, because of the logistical and recruitment issues. Maybe this is just gonna be how it is. Maybe, at the end of the day, the people who want to do 25s will do it, and maybe one day there won't be enough to justify it, and that's that.

The more I think about it, the more things like this really just continue to push a divide between the two, to allow the playerbase to suggest what's 'real' raiding and what isn't. Seems like a bit of a waste of time, really.
01/25/2013 03:36 AMPosted by Waraila
Guess what? The 25-mans get 3 items for every 1 item 10-mans get right now, and 25-man raiders are still not happy. This current proposal is just taking an incentive that is already known to have failed one step further.


So if you think the grass is greener, why aren't you running 25s? Remember we get 1 extra piece of loot. The rest is the same ratio. So that argument of yours goes out the window.

I'm not an officer or GM of the 25 man I am in, and even I'm protesting against the thunderforged idea like most other 25 man raiders because it makes things worse. It discourages being benched on farm fights because of that chance to get a better item. But your reasoning is just asinine.

If the extra piece of loot is an incentive, why are 25s dying? It's because it's magnitudes easier to get 9 extra people to show up and raid than it is 24 + enough people to fill a 10 man as a bench.

People moved to 10 mans because it was easier... simple as. Less people to screw up, less people to manage, less people to rotate in and out. Most 10 man guilds don't have a bench, and the raiding population is getting spread thinner and thinner. The merging of lockouts was the biggest culprit. But 25 mans should not have been sacrificed to boost 10 mans at the start of cata....


The change was not done to boost participation in 10s. The biggest complaint during WotLK was 25 man groups felt burnt out claiming they "had" to run both 10s and 25s each week to keep up with progression and compete. From day one Naxx to Cata that is all Blizzard heard. That plus the ridicule of 10s by 25s and that 25s were not run because of the loot advantage.

So Blizzard decided to equalize the raid difficulties, share the lockouts and offer the same ilvl loot. Ever since Blizzard gave the people a choice on different size equal challenge formats the raiding player base spoke loud and clear that they want to raid 10s and leave the guild drama behind in the dust.

This is not a problem for Blizzard to fix. If guilds want an easier time recruiting players for 25s and keeping them then they need to offer incentives to the players they are looking for. Offer free crafted upgrades, give them unlimited repairs throughout the whole week(if funds are high enough), free flasks, free top end foods, free enchants, mounts, mog ruuns, mount runs, pets, PvP runs, you get the picture. If a guild chooses to participate in 25s over 10s then they take on social challenges not game challenges and IMO should not be rewarded in game with more/better loot.
in regards to the OP:

this will change nothing. As long as there is 10 man raiding, the vast majority of 25 will run into "roadblocks", and trim down to their best 12 or so raiders to complete the content.

kill 10 man raiding as part of the regular tier, and include a couple "kara/ZA/ZG type" 10 man raid per ex-pack to appease the 10 man people.

make it all 25 man raiding. anything else is a waste of manpower on your end.
Not going far enough, kill 10's entirely. One raid size 20 or 25. Three settings, LFR, normal, and heroic. And I say this as a former 10 player.

Multiple raid sizes just causes more problems than it solves, has for years, and this won't fix it.


gonna assume you werent playing in BC. i was. kara and ZA were not problematic at all. sure there were a few grumbles here and there on the forums, but for the most part, those 2 dungeons became a place folks went on friday nights in a casual atmosphere.

that said, killing 10s outright wouldnt bother me at all, and would fix any problems folks have for sure.
Not going far enough, kill 10's entirely. One raid size 20 or 25. Three settings, LFR, normal, and heroic. And I say this as a former 10 player.

Multiple raid sizes just causes more problems than it solves, has for years, and this won't fix it.


gonna assume you werent playing in BC. i was. kara and ZA were not problematic at all. sure there were a few grumbles here and there on the forums, but for the most part, those 2 dungeons became a place folks went on friday nights in a casual atmosphere.

that said, killing 10s outright wouldnt bother me at all, and would fix any problems folks have for sure.


Likewise killing 25s wouldn't bother me a all and would fix all the problems since there would be one size easier to tune and balance and best of all no on can complain about better loots or not enough loot. It works both ways.
It's bad enough the loot tables are so large...and the crap nature of RNG means sometimes NEVER seeing an item you're after drop...but you make it even worse by adding yet even more RNG.
This is the worst expansion...hands down. Practically every change is a mindnumbing...why?


I find it to be the best one so far. I find the accessibility of all activities to be the best thing to happen to this game. I know I will not be the best PvPer in the world but I stand a chance in PvE gear while I farm up honor and conquest points to get PvP gear. I also get my other classes to experience raiding to some degree. I have stuff to do when I want to play and don't have a raid or challenge modes to run. I have not had this much fun since I logged on in 04.

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