10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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You already slap 10 man guilds in the face by dropping more gear in 25 man and now you increase the drop rate of thunderforged gear? It was bad enough when 25 man FL got their legendaries faster than 10 man and now you want to go down that road again?

Here's a suggestion, make 10 man boss kills drop 5 pieces of loot and even out the distribution and gearing disadvantage between the two.

2/10=5/25 not 2/10<5/25 (for per boss fight) and while 32/160<83/400 (counting the 1 extra from each end boss in the current tier) the difference is 0.75% not that big.
There used to be 13 ilvls between each difficulty in raids, but now LFR is 20 ilvls behind normal modes. Is this really necessary?
01/23/2013 09:04 AMPosted by Nightsbane
I like it, throw in some thunderforged LFR pieces in - why not it'll be lower ilevel than normal anyways.

No, please don't add this to LFR. LFR's intention isn't to be a means to gear but rather a means to see the content. Also being able to do the legendary questline in LFR is over the top as is.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

So converting our raid from 10-man to 25-man means higher ilevel faster. All else being equal (skill of raiders, hours raided per week, etc) implies that 25-man will progress faster than 10-man. Thus 25-man becomes mandatory for many guilds once again.

Why must you introduce an artificial incentive that promotes a less favorable format for the majority of players? And by less favorable, I mean by simply looking at how many guilds raid 10 vs 25.

You are caught in a bind here Blizzard, but not sure this is the right way to do it. As it stands the amount of gear that drops (and the higher probability that someone can actually use it) puts 25-man guilds at a gear advantage over 10-man guilds. If the %chance of a Thunderforged drop is too low, it won't work. If it is too high, it become mandatory.
This will not help bring back 25s.

This is true.

The only change you will see is that Paragon will return to 25M raiding, This change will do NOTHING to aid in recruitment for 25M Semi-hardcore and casual raid guilds.
01/23/2013 09:48 AMPosted by Immikey
No, please don't add this to LFR. LFR's intention isn't to be a means to gear but rather a means to see the content. Also being able to do the legendary questline in LFR is over the top as is.

The idea the LFR is just to see content is no longer accurate. Several blizzard reps have posted that LFR in MoP is meant as a means of gearing for normal mode raids, especially for catch up situations. LFR is now intended as a means to get gear.

Random chance +6 ilevel bonuses seem pretty boring and really won't have any effect on boosting 25man raids.

In my opinion you need to look at raid infrastructure. The problem 25man raids have is when they can't fill composition wise. A 25man raid needs to keep a larger bench than a 10man guild.

So in this case look outside the box and find ways to make it easier coordination wise for 25man raid groups.

For instance:

Make a 25man baseline raid 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps.

Say a couple healers are out, instead of forcing the 25man raid to carry three or four benched healers on a regular basis, allow them to five-heal the encounter.

2 tanks, 5 healers and 18 dps. But give the raid a +10% bonus to healing taken.

Say a lot of dps are out but all the healers are on. Let the raid do that.

2 tanks, 7 healers and 16 dps. Give the raid a +5% damage bonus.

This helps the 25man raid groups work around trying to keep their roster viable to raid with without having to have such a large bench.

The problem then becomes people finding ways to game that system. How do you quantify the loss of a single dps or healer? At some point guilds will find that it will be better to drop a dps or healer because the total raid hps or dps will go up because of the buff.

I don't think the thunderforged idea will fix it but the one you suggested also has a lot of issues to think about.
Give 25man a Higher iLevel aswell.
Will bonus loots from Charms have a chance at Thunderforged items?
Sounds like a good fix for farm nights. I'm in a 10man guild and changes feel far. I think it can be argued it's only a bandage for 25man.
It isn't enough incentive to make me want to run 25s again as the headache of managing a 33 person roster to consistently fill out a 25 person raid sucks.

Two things though:

1) Not letting set pieces get this bonus really devalues set pieces.

2) Do you think you would see people holding off on expensive enchants or gems (like buying a sha touched gem for 1k gold) for the normal version of a drop and instead waiting for the upgraded version to drop to apply these enchants/gems?

I think a better way to approach this will be to have a rare item drop for the raid that will boost the ilvl of a given item by 6. Say, a 'thunder ingot' that you take to the thunderforge to upgrade an item. This way set pieces are no longer excluded. It also touches on problem 2, as it eliminates some of the waiting for the better item to drop before you commit such costly enchants to them.
01/23/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Oscassey
You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522

Why such a big jump between the ilvls? LFR items at 502 will almost match the heroic version of this current tier.

Not gonna lie, this line confused me. And still does. I can't tell if it's dropping in LFR or not. The first and last paragraphs contradict each other.

Thunderforged bag of gold. Gives double gold. God wouldn't it would be amazing?

+1. Made me chuckle :)
Crithto, This seems like a good start to begin with. I was fearful that you were not going to do anything at all. This will be a small band-aid on the problem. You MIGHT get a few hardcore progression guilds to go back to 25m for this, but for the most part how does this make a Guild Master say "hey, I'm interested in going back to 25m raiding now cause we might have a chance at some gear with a few more ilvls on it." As an officer in a 25m guild I just don't see any 10m making the jump assuming that is your intentions. It will probably make some 25m guilds not drop to 10m so that is a major plus.

I have a suggestion on how to fix it. >> You have the problem outlined perfectly in your post:

"A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen."

What (I think you want) is Guild Masters / Officers to make the choice to raid 25m if they want to and not be forced to run 10m because its easier for them to get 9 people online and on the same page than it is to do the same with 24 people. I truly feel players want to be in a 25m raid there is just a lack of 25m guilds for them to get into.

You need to give the the officers / GMs of guilds a reason to run 25mans:
- Officer / GM mount drop or Title on a 25m boss only
- A special Coin that an officer and/or GM could use that would give them a 100% chance drop off a boss.
- Limit the number of officers that can be in a 25m guild so it is not exploited and increase the drop rate for their Coins and/or make the ilvl of their drops more.

You get the idea, and I can see issues with each of these ideas, but the last thing i want is 10m guilds to think they are more "hardcore" because now they have to kill bosses with less ilvl.
I agree with most of the concerns already mentioned. While I'm happy to see that Blizzard is taking the 25m guild stability problem seriously, I'm not sure this is going to help a bit. My concerns here are going to be 25m specific, but in reality they apply to 10s as well.

- 25m rosters have more than 25 people on them (obviously), which means we have to rotate bodies. Most efficient teams do this by rotating out people who don't need gear from various bosses, this complicates this greatly. We can get around it by pretending Thunderforged gear doesn't exist, but if it is really so rare that this is plausible, then it can't plausibly really be a solution. It can't both be a useful carrot and so rare we ignore it.

- RNG is part of the game, and loot in general, but you are now adding another layer to it. Random variation now can make a huge difference between players, especially in the realm of weapons being "Thunderforged" 6 ilvls is enormous.

- This complicates efficiently gearing offspecs. If the majority of drops are going to be non-Thunderforged, it means when the Thunderforged drops, it is going to go to someone's main spec who most likely already has the "normal" variety. Especially in the realm of niche loot, an efficient guild normally would have given this piece to a useful offspec to add some flexibility to the raid, but instead we are essentially reverse sharding the gear by replacing the piece we got weeks before.

- For less stable guilds, the ones most likely to die, loot drama is a huge impetus for guild destruction. This just adds a catalyst for it.

Possible alternatives?

- Instead of dropping Thunderforged items, drop an (additional) item rarely that we can use to make an existing piece Thunderforged. This allows us to prioritize it where it is most useful without the risk of ruining gearing efficiency. Make them slot specific (similar to family specific pet battle stones) if you are concerned that they'd all just get used on weapons.

- Make us have a random chance to "proc" a Thunderforged upgrade on our existing gear (though this still suffers from people wanting to be in for every farm kill.)
I think it would be interesting if there was a "set bonus" for wearing all thunderforged armor. The reason for the bonus is that to be in all thunderforged, you would have to give up tier armor. Make the bonuses non-class specfic such as procs or summons and have the total power of the set equivalent or slightly above what it would be with thunderforged + tier (it would just add a new dimension to playstyle preference.)
This blizz post is weird.

Running a 25m is harder to manage.

Lets not focus on management...

Give 25man guild raid leaders an instant raid-wipe button.

Give 25man guild raid leaders a spell that instantly buffs the raid with flasks and food as long as you have the items in your inventory.

Make it easier for us to recruit and contact prospective raiders.
This is a bad idea.
You aren't "fixing" anything or giving added incentive to raid 25s by adding a rare chance +6ilvl drop into the loot table.

You are creating a ton of problems for very little gain.

"Random loot is random", but there is some expectation of what the boss will/won't drop, and you can estimate what type of gear progression you're going to be looking at as you progress through a zone, and based on this, you can be flexible with what you bring/sit for a raid, be it an applicant or someone's alt on a farm night, simply because now we'll always worry that by doing this, we might rot a TF piece.

You aren't doing us any favors, you are just adding more complexity to a system that doesn't need it.

This is your "controversial incentive" to make 25s more appealing?

This is a two-edged feigned gear split. You know that by making the drop chance of TF items different across raid sizes, 25s will end up with a slightly higher Ilvl compared to their 10 counterparts, since it's probably rare enough that anyone can estimate that you won't ever gearcap with TF in place, so, higher droprate -> higher ilvl across the board for the 25s.

Given that you know, internally, the tentative drop rates for both raid sizes, you already know what the expected ilvl gap between the two will be, so, instead of trojan horse of a gift that comes with a ton of problems for raid flexibility now that every boss kill is a potential "BiS TF" drop, you might as well have just figured out what the "ilvl gap" number is, and added that expected gap across the board for all drops, for consistency.

Some of us have finished H MSV well over a month ago and still have to keep coming back because of things like "Light of Cosmos" that has no upgrade in HoF/Terrace, by adding the potential of having a "Heroic Thunderforged Light of Cosmos" equivalent, you're just going to make this even worse.

Please rethink what you're doing. According to yourselves, 25s needs something to be more attractive to be a raid format, or it will continue to steadily decline in numbers, but this is NOT how you fix it.

The problem then becomes people finding ways to game that system. How do you quantify the loss of a single dps or healer? At some point guilds will find that it will be better to drop a dps or healer because the total raid hps or dps will go up because of the buff.


Well this was more a very simple example of the type of measure that would help out the struggling 25man groups. The point I wanted to make is that just simple incentives aren't the issue here. The issue is that 25man guilds are falling apart, and this is the main reason: not being able to regularly fill a raid that has proper composition.

Obviously you'd need something to make sure that the non-struggling can't use it as a tool that gives too much of an advantage.

You could make the system compensate, if you get +10% healing from being short a healer, you could also lose 2-3% total dps.
Another point to make: Wouldn't 25s have an increase chance anyway with the increased amount of loot? Why further increase their chances to increase iLvl over 10s? Seems to me that in a 10 man, with just 2 pieces per boss, and 25 man, with 5 pieces per boss, if Thunderforged gear has a drop rate of r% for both 10s and 25s, when wouldn't 5r% be greater than 2r%? If you're adding a multiplier(m) to the r% drop rate, you're looking at 5(m*r%) being much greater than 2r%. Even using small numbers, where r=1 and m=2, it's 2% vs 10% if modified and 2% to 5% unmodified. Still a 250% increased drop chance unmodified versus a 500% increased drop chance modified. Just my 2 cents, I'll probably get change back though.

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