10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

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What about low-population servers? On our server, no guild has even stepped foot into 25m raids. Is it possible to start combining servers? Crossrealm guild invites?

Until there is a way to increase the population on our server, the 10 & 25 raid loot changes are meaningless to us.


I am GM of a 25man guild on Gnomeregan, and theres really not many servers who are lower than Gnomeregan in terms of amount of players.

If you want, you can.
01/25/2013 08:32 AMPosted by Herethebeef
I dont think its so much the difficulty part of it that is making people not want to do it, there isn't any prestige with running a successful 25m guild like there used to be. Honestly separating the achievements would be a much more welcome solution than this stupid rng loot idea. Most 25m raiders just want to be able to see on their achievements that they killed heroic garajal on 25m. Whether or not its harder in either difficulty doesnt matter, right now with the shared achieves there is no way to differentiate a 25m raider from a 10m raider. Honestly I think that is all most of us want from this.


Youd be wrong. And separating achievements is a terrible idea. Because then 25 mans would have access to 2X as many achievements.


Not if the achievements are one and done. You get 25 OR 10s, not both. Same as it is now, except that you add back in the 10 or 25 marker.
01/25/2013 08:54 AMPosted by Narph
I referenced that 25man organization was more challenging, but rewarding the participants is not the answer, reward the guild/leaders (see below). I was speaking from some past personal experience and regarding cliques, was not implying that happens everywhere. I guess by definition a guild is a bit of a clique, rephrased to sub-cliques :P


Do you imagine what kind of individual you promote to start guilds if you give rewards to the Guild masters and officer ? You will just promote selfish individuals who want the reward to create guild for their own gain.

As a Guild Master, the only reward you can bring me is a good health for my guild thats been my project for years. And with all the 25man dying all around us, its only a matter of months/years before it happens to my 25man. 10man had their time, and the experiment was a failure, Blizzard has to make a change a real one, bring in 1 format, either 10, or 25. Not both.


I've put a few posts on this, you don't specifically incentivize the guild, but you do provide the raid the ability to give those raiders some additional benefits THROUGH the guild raiding as a 25man and requiring a 'guild run'. They don't get the perk permanently, because people would abandon it once they get it, so they need to maintain appropriate attendance or the perk drops for the individual player. This provides a backup incentive for players to play well and hold their spots in the raid as well.

I wholeheartedly disagree the 'experiment' was a failure. I do agree the system needs some tweaks but there are multiple other ways to enhance 25man raiding guilds to make them more appealing, that have nothing to do with getting better gear. By doing so gives the playerbase the CHOICE of what will be more fun for them.
What about low-population servers? On our server, no guild has even stepped foot into 25m raids. Is it possible to start combining servers? Crossrealm guild invites?

Until there is a way to increase the population on our server, the 10 & 25 raid loot changes are meaningless to us.


Well its not going to change if we stick with the status quo?
Would your guild recruit if there was better gear in 25s...probably.
In all honesty if you havent done a full 25man raid in BC or 40man in bc you havent experienced what this game has to offer...its kiinda like driving who the hell would want a automatic when you can get the full driving experience of a Standard. Allthough a stupid metaphor it is my opionion.
Just testing the water:
  • What if 25man raids always dropped Thunderfoged items via token (not every drop, but at least 2 per boss)? - 10man would still drop TF'd items as well, but it's not guaranteed, except off end-wind bosses.
    This would be achieved through a token system: Normal and Heroic tokens exist; run to an Item Level Upgrade vendor, place your Helm of the Thunderforged Gear (Heroic) into the slot, upgrading costs a Heroic token. Normal mode items use normal mode tokens
  • Cauldrons - 50 charges. Costs 20 flasks t0 make (5 of each: Agi, Str, Int, Sta)

  • Why not just stop sidestepping it and just say you want 25s to get better ilevels and go back to how it used to be?
    I've put a few posts on this, you don't specifically incentivize the guild, but you do provide the raid the ability to give those raiders some additional benefits THROUGH the guild raiding as a 25man and requiring a 'guild run'. They don't get the perk permanently, because people would abandon it once they get it, so they need to maintain appropriate attendance or the perk drops for the individual player. This provides a backup incentive for players to play well and hold their spots in the raid as well.

    I wholeheartedly disagree the 'experiment' was a failure. I do agree the system needs some tweaks but there are multiple other ways to enhance 25man raiding guilds to make them more appealing, that have nothing to do with getting better gear. By doing so gives the playerbase the CHOICE of what will be more fun for them.


    The experiment wasnt a failure ?? in litterally the next expantion, unless blizzard has the balls to piss off the 10man crowd, the 25man will be gone. And it sure is looking that way.

    How is 10=25 man not a failure when it litterally killed one of the 2 modes that was suppose to be a choice ? And please to pull the card * Because 10man is more popular!!*

    Put a MCdonald at 2 hours drive from me, and a Burger king at 20 mins away from me, and I can guarantee you that I will eat 90 % time more often at Burgerking even if I would like some MCdonald.

    You 10s fanboys are just delusional, and its scary that Blizzard is listening to you, digging the grave of this game 1 step at the time.
    I kind of think if normal modes were harder, and they want back to the Ulduar style of hardmode, where it was just a few bosses with a few upgrades, then running a 25 man guild would be more reasonable. Where, the raid gets a baseline staple of best in slot gear and there are some speckles of heroic loot here and there.
    What about low-population servers? On our server, no guild has even stepped foot into 25m raids. Is it possible to start combining servers? Crossrealm guild invites?

    Until there is a way to increase the population on our server, the 10 & 25 raid loot changes are meaningless to us.


    I am GM of a 25man guild on Gnomeregan, and theres really not many servers who are lower than Gnomeregan in terms of amount of players.

    If you want, you can.

    http://wow.realmpop.com/us-gnomeregan.html

    http://wow.realmpop.com/us-dalvengyr.html

    I had a more successful 25 man guild than yours on Dalvengyr with 1/3 of the population available. Is it possible? Yes. Is it absolutely way too much work if you want to maintain at least a certain level of competence among your raiders when you have lots of people quit after a long drought of content and you can't fill quickly because no one wants to transfer to your server and you don't have the talent on the server? Way too much work.

    Just because you can make it work doesn't mean it's worth it. Server population is without a doubt a huge issue for 25s.
    @ Tectonicbomb:

    Why does it matter which raid group size you are? You just said there isn't much prestige anymore. If it doesn't matter which is harder, why would prestige have any bearing? You now what you did. Is displaying the difference really that meaningful?


    If you'd bothered to read this thread, you would have seen multiple people from 25 man guilds saying YES, it matters. For instance, you would have seen me say it (RL of a 25man 5/16hm guild). I assure you the people in my guild share the sentiment.

    As has been said repeatedly, the problem facing 25mans is logistics and organization. A shiny little badge we can look at with pride is actually a mark that we put that time in and did that. Blizzard, of course, could just help us out with guild recruitment tools and quality of life issues instead of this rather useless attempt at fix-via-RNG. Doesn't mean the mark of achievement isn't meaningful!


    I have read some of the thread actually, however i was responding to HIS post. He said there wasn't prestige left in it, not me. I think there is prestige in ANY dead heroic boss.

    Normals are right of passage, defeated heroic bosses are prestigious in 10 or 25man. The SAME prestige, hence my advocating equal rewards for the dead boss. Unless you have a specific duty in organizing the raid or running the guild, you do nothing more than what a player in a 10 man raid does. Actually we can argue the 10man player potentially does more for or has more responsibility in their raid than a 25man raid member DURING the encounter.
    Normals are right of passage, defeated heroic bosses are prestigious in 10 or 25man. The SAME prestige, hence my advocating equal rewards for the dead boss. Unless you have a specific duty in organizing the raid or running the guild, you do nothing more than what a player in a 10 man raid does. Actually we can argue the 10man player potentially does more for or has more responsibility in their raid than a 25man raid member DURING the encounter.


    For sure, Heroic Will of the emperor in 10 man and 25 man is the SAME prestige.

    Lol.. I love getting a good laugh at work on Fridays.

    Having 10 mans and 25 mans share loot was the worst thing they did.......for 25 mans. Not for everyone else. If better loot is the only thing 25 mans had to offer to the world.........then they DO need to go away. Because then they aren't actually offering people anything they actually want.....the reasons people claim they love 25 mans.


    Let me make it clearer for you. It was one of the worst things for the GAME. Not what makes it easier for you and your buds to get together and Raid. That's never been questioned. The need to balance 10's has hurt the game.

    What has switching the majority of the player base to 10's brought to the game?

    Class Homogenization -

    Have to make sure every Buff, Debuff or Utility is available to the 10 format or it isn't fair. That means Buff Normalization, Interrupt Normalization etc. It also means the devs can't make unique skills for classes or that class may become required. Not a problem in 25's but it is an issue with 10's.

    We've lost classic MMO roles like Buffing classes (Shaman in Vanilla and TBC) and general Utility Classes (think of Bards in EQor Hybrids in Vanilla).

    Encounter Design Limitations -

    Instructor Razuvious in Naxx. Required a Priest for Mind Control in Vanilla. No big deal since you should be expected to have every class in a 40 man Raid. For Wrath they needed to add Pylons to duplicate the effect to make sure 10's were covered.

    High King Mulgar - Required a Mage to Tank Krosh. Only a Mage could do it because of Spellsteal.

    This goes along with the above and class homogenization. We'll never see encounters like this again because it's not fair to the poor 10 man players who want to "bring the player, not the class". That's not a good thing.

    In a game with 33 specs 10 players Raids are bad for the game. It was fine in Wrath when there was no effort to make them the same difficulty. The devs could still balance for 25's and use all the tools at their disposal to design encounters. We could have distinct class skills because it wold be expected that a 25 man Raid would have all the classes covered.

    Maybe if Titan is designed from the ground up around the idea of 10 man group encounters it will work but this game was designed around large scale end game encounters and 10 mans are an abomination in that context. I don't care that you prefer the format it makes the game as a whole worse.


    Don't forget that in pvp all those 'class specific' abilities affected those comps as well. To make things more attractive they homogenized some of it because of the imbalance and requirement to have some of those abilities avail for pvp comps too. Point being it was bound to happen or class imbalance would have created a narrower pvp class spread.
    01/25/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Narph
    Normals are right of passage, defeated heroic bosses are prestigious in 10 or 25man. The SAME prestige, hence my advocating equal rewards for the dead boss. Unless you have a specific duty in organizing the raid or running the guild, you do nothing more than what a player in a 10 man raid does. Actually we can argue the 10man player potentially does more for or has more responsibility in their raid than a 25man raid member DURING the encounter.


    For sure, Heroic Will of the emperor in 10 man and 25 man is the SAME prestige.

    Lol.. I love getting a good laugh at work on Fridays.

    I know this is hard for you because I read many of your posts on D&R, but do you ever keep your posts constructive at any point?
    01/25/2013 10:15 AMPosted by Dysheki


    For sure, Heroic Will of the emperor in 10 man and 25 man is the SAME prestige.

    Lol.. I love getting a good laugh at work on Fridays.

    I know this is hard for you because I read many of your posts on D&R, but do you ever keep your posts constructive at any point?


    He can barely construct sentences. You're asking too much.
    I've put a few posts on this, you don't specifically incentivize the guild, but you do provide the raid the ability to give those raiders some additional benefits THROUGH the guild raiding as a 25man and requiring a 'guild run'. They don't get the perk permanently, because people would abandon it once they get it, so they need to maintain appropriate attendance or the perk drops for the individual player. This provides a backup incentive for players to play well and hold their spots in the raid as well.

    I wholeheartedly disagree the 'experiment' was a failure. I do agree the system needs some tweaks but there are multiple other ways to enhance 25man raiding guilds to make them more appealing, that have nothing to do with getting better gear. By doing so gives the playerbase the CHOICE of what will be more fun for them.


    The experiment wasnt a failure ?? in litterally the next expantion, unless blizzard has the balls to piss off the 10man crowd, the 25man will be gone. And it sure is looking that way.

    How is 10=25 man not a failure when it litterally killed one of the 2 modes that was suppose to be a choice ? And please to pull the card * Because 10man is more popular!!*

    Put a MCdonald at 2 hours drive from me, and a Burger king at 20 mins away from me, and I can guarantee you that I will eat 90 % time more often at Burgerking even if I would like some MCdonald.

    You 10s fanboys are just delusional, and its scary that Blizzard is listening to you, digging the grave of this game 1 step at the time.


    I hear you. I understand what you are saying and I get that something needs to be done. But providing a loot benefit is unneccessary. You're essentially proposing to 'blow up' the 10man system because it's failed. It has not. You don't like my example of solutions, yet you're doing nothing to offer anything beyond reinforcing a loot difference. Turn on your creativeness and come up with things beyond LOOT that drives enjoyment of a 25man raid/guild. If someone raids exclusively for loot, they're bad and any guild should minimize how many of those players they have around.

    What you're mostly upset about is that you can't say "We killed heroic Hc Vizier, oh you did too? Well ours/mine was on 25man, yours was just 10, pssh". Then we laugh and say "Well lol cuz we killed 10man HcWill and didn't stack 4 mages, hunters and spriests each to kill ours." That's just silly and immature to even have to deal with someone trying to eleveate themselves either way. BOTH kills are prestigious and fun. Be happy with that. If you need more, build your way to killing those bosses in faster progression and improving your rank instead of trying to dictate what someone else receives as reward for killing a boss.
    Well its not going to change if we stick with the status quo?
    Would your guild recruit if there was better gear in 25s...probably.
    In all honesty if you havent done a full 25man raid in BC or 40man in bc you havent experienced what this game has to offer...its kiinda like driving who the hell would want a automatic when you can get the full driving experience of a Standard. Allthough a stupid metaphor it is my opionion.


    We have been trying to recruit. There is no one else to recruit except from other guilds. The other guilds also recruit from our guild. The main problem is the low-population. I'm not saying that the new looting changes shouldn't be implemented. What I want Blizzard to address is the population issue.

    I am GM of a 25man guild on Gnomeregan, and theres really not many servers who are lower than Gnomeregan in terms of amount of players.

    If you want, you can.


    Archimonde is lower. I just looked up your server compared to ours.
    01/25/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Narph
    Normals are right of passage, defeated heroic bosses are prestigious in 10 or 25man. The SAME prestige, hence my advocating equal rewards for the dead boss. Unless you have a specific duty in organizing the raid or running the guild, you do nothing more than what a player in a 10 man raid does. Actually we can argue the 10man player potentially does more for or has more responsibility in their raid than a 25man raid member DURING the encounter.


    For sure, Heroic Will of the emperor in 10 man and 25 man is the SAME prestige.

    Lol.. I love getting a good laugh at work on Fridays.


    yes you are right, LOL! Since i just referenced HcWill in a new post. 10man IS more prestigious, imo, on that fight. Not that either one was easy, but not having access to a perfect raid comp for soaking did making it a challenge. Think i'm ready to stop feeding this troll now tho, unless there is some constructive thought you have to assist the thread.
    yes you are right, LOL! Since i just referenced HcWill in a new post. 10man IS more prestigious, imo, on that fight. Not that either one was easy, but not having access to a perfect raid comp for soaking did making it a challenge. Think i'm ready to stop feeding this troll now tho, unless there is some constructive thought you have to assist the thread.


    Yes, if certain players can't make it some days we can't do this fight. There's a very high need for a lot of soakers. It's unfortunate shaman's defensive cooldowns are so weak.
    I know this is hard for you because I read many of your posts on D&R, but do you ever keep your posts constructive at any point?


    Have your favorite play style slowly destroyed over the 2 last years for the sake of *a more accessible raiding experience* and your post will stop being constructive.

    There is only soo much data and facts that can be used to prove a point, after a while, you jsut give up, and mock the otherside until you are in the grave.

    Ive already laid out the facts.

    *And it is simple, there are players out there who want to do 25man, but it is less of a pain in the !@#$ to do 10man.

    *92% of the guilds 25man at the end of ICC are dead and gone ever since this joke of a change (10=25)

    *Servers without a 25man guild (At least one) have a community that is slowly decaying faster than other servers because the economy is poorer, there is less alt groups running, less pugs, higher prices for everything, which makes it harder to buy stuff for the casual of this server

    Solution :
    Simple, blizzard, grow balls, admit your mistake, and terminate this before it is too late, put back 10man as the second citizen they are.
    And good riddance to that. In BC I loved my rogue, but for my raid I was the only one who even HAD a mage, so I was forced to level him and gear him up just for that encounter. Again, that really only hurts your argument. GATA HAVE A MAGE. Not, we want to have a mage, wed like to have a mage, GATA HAVE A MAGE WHO GETS PIDGEONHOLED INTO A JOB. Thats dumb. Feng proves that mechanics like that are still possible, get a gem that gives you the ability.


    Thats a freak occurance and wasn't a problem for the rest of the world. So out of 25-35 raiders you didn't have ONE mage for HKM. Thats not a bad encounter design - its your own bad luck or oversight in management not to maintain 2-3 of a class during Burning Crusade.

    When we hit archimonde we quickly learned we were short decursers. We did BT instead, recruited 2 decursers and came back.

    Pigeonholed...

    Lots of people give up things or make sacrafices for the better of their raid. My leader is tanking instead of playing his warlock because we are short a tank. I get stuck with every special/kiting/driving type job under the sun because I can do them. I have to throw rain & chain spells every other encounter as a DPS during boss abilities. Yet I am always expected to maintain strong DPS numbers. Its fun getting beat by a hair on elegon because your asked to heal every few GCD in the last phase

    I was allegedly "backup offspec healer" in DS yet I got stuck healing ever other encounter, every week. So boo hoo, you had to run your mage on that encounter for the good of the guild.
    01/25/2013 10:40 AMPosted by Narph
    *92% of the guilds 25man at the end of ICC are dead and gone ever since this joke of a change (10=25)


    100% on my server. 4-5 horde side and 3-4 alliance side. All dead.

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