10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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01/27/2013 03:20 AMPosted by Cyous
I don't particularly care about the world progression race either, normally, but I couldn't help but smile when Paragon beat the hell out of the 25's this tier.

Especially when you consider they used multiple 25man raids to gear up their core 10. Truly an astonishing test of skill and dedication. Hence why no decent 25man raiding guilds care about 10man. Additionally, hence why no decent 10man raiding guilds care about 25man raiding.


Paragon didnt use 25 mans to gear up. They only ran 10 mans. They also didnt pick the 10 best players from their 25 man. They just took the players that stayed. And according to all the 10 mans out there that means they must have kept a baddy or 2. Since 25 mans can carry 15 people.

So even with some bads (from the best 25 man guild for the last few tiers) they were still able to get world first. And you still think 10 mans are harder than 25's or even close?
I think a lot of the posts from 25-man supporters equate to "I think 25-man is fun, but most of the player base does not. To make them want to run 25s, I want Blizzard to pay them (in increased gear levels and achievements.)"

I also think if Blizzard actually cared to support 25-man raiding it would be incredibly easy for them do so, but instead they would rather spend thousands of dollars in developers' time trying to incentivize 25-man raiding without annoying the 10-mans, when they could just give free server transfers to get the players who want to raid in 25s onto a few servers. And it would be interesting to see how the economy behaves if most of the server's population are raiders.

To answer Virtutis' question 'Where did all the raiders go?': they quit. 80% of my 25-man guild in Wrath quit before Cata came out. Some of them came back in Cata and MoP, only 3 that I know of raid. The 10-man guild I'm in now had more raiders quit in Cata than are currently raiding.
01/27/2013 03:08 PMPosted by Dakkz
Paragon didnt use 25 mans to gear up. They only ran 10 mans

Oh...I knew they ran multiple guild runs, figured they still had active players (more than just enough for 10).

Regardless, the concept is the same, you can feed loot to specific players in a run and give your core group a gear advantage.
01/27/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Cyous
Paragon didnt use 25 mans to gear up. They only ran 10 mans

Oh...I knew they ran multiple guild runs, figured they still had active players (more than just enough for 10).

Regardless, the concept is the same, you can feed loot to specific players in a run and give your core group a gear advantage.


And even then, its Paragon. They are an amazing group of players. I highly doubt their "b team" is any lower than their "a team" on an overall average.
To answer Virtutis' question 'Where did all the raiders go?': they quit. 80% of my 25-man guild in Wrath quit before Cata came out. Some of them came back in Cata and MoP, only 3 that I know of raid. The 10-man guild I'm in now had more raiders quit in Cata than are currently raiding.


The reward structure isn't setup in a way that incentivizes brining new people into raiding. It's setup in a way to almost segregate knowedgeable experienced players from new players.

The reward structure says to me, "Find other players who are capable of flawlessly executing a difficult encounter while maintaining exceptionally high output".

Perhaps a reward structure that supports raiding in the more general term, would put in place a structure that says, "get 25 people together and have them learn some basic mechanics with above average output".

But the second you put high end gear or mounts on anything hardmode-esque that I can't do in addition to raiding with a smaller group, is really just going to force me out of 25 man raiding again.
01/27/2013 03:08 PMPosted by Dakkz

Especially when you consider they used multiple 25man raids to gear up their core 10. Truly an astonishing test of skill and dedication. Hence why no decent 25man raiding guilds care about 10man. Additionally, hence why no decent 10man raiding guilds care about 25man raiding.


Paragon didnt use 25 mans to gear up. They only ran 10 mans. They also didnt pick the 10 best players from their 25 man. They just took the players that stayed. And according to all the 10 mans out there that means they must have kept a baddy or 2. Since 25 mans can carry 15 people.

So even with some bads (from the best 25 man guild for the last few tiers) they were still able to get world first. And you still think 10 mans are harder than 25's or even close?


LOL that there were bads in Paragon.
01/27/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Nydidolyn
Blizzard themselves said a lot of things that would "never work", and then they came to be anyway. Faction transfers, name changes, race changes, just to name a few.


Blizzard said they would never do those things, not that those things weren't possible. There's a big difference. I'm not saying LFR isn't possible like that, I'm saying it wouldn't work. The idea of 25 random schmucks being able to down a Heroic-difficulty boss is ludicrous.

01/27/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Nydidolyn
Just because MoP "heroics" are easy doesn't change the fact that they're called heroics by Blizzard and, by their reckoning (not ours), harder than normal modes with better loot.


They're harder insofar as they require a higher level - level 90. That's about it.

Besides, nothing says they can't do this and make "challenge mode" raids for groups who want to try their luck at them. But just like current challenge mode 5 mans, the rewards would merely be cosmetic.


That wouldn't work either. For one thing, there would be very little replay value. For another, there would be no sense of the previous bosses getting easier because there's no gear curve.


Paragon didnt use 25 mans to gear up. They only ran 10 mans. They also didnt pick the 10 best players from their 25 man. They just took the players that stayed. And according to all the 10 mans out there that means they must have kept a baddy or 2. Since 25 mans can carry 15 people.

So even with some bads (from the best 25 man guild for the last few tiers) they were still able to get world first. And you still think 10 mans are harder than 25's or even close?


LOL that there were bads in Paragon.


But its been a proven fact by some 10 mans that 25 mans really only have 10 good players and the rest are carried.

But now since they are 10 man they all have to be great players.


LOL that there were bads in Paragon.


But its been a proven fact by some 10 mans that 25 mans really only have 10 good players and the rest are carried.

But now since they are 10 man they all have to be great players.


That assessment doesn't apply to top world guilds. Pretty much those whole guilds are quite good or else they wouldn't be there.


But its been a proven fact by some 10 mans that 25 mans really only have 10 good players and the rest are carried.

But now since they are 10 man they all have to be great players.


That assessment doesn't apply to top world guilds. Pretty much those whole guilds are quite good or else they wouldn't be there.


It applied when you guys were crying for nerfs to 10 mans because 25 man guilds had killed nef and sinestra and rag and spine and madness etc etc etc.
01/27/2013 05:53 PMPosted by Dakkz
It applied when you guys were crying for nerfs to 10 mans because 25 man guilds had killed nef and sinestra and rag and spine and madness etc etc etc.


Where was anyone from 25mans crying for 10man nerfs?

If you are referring to this thread, some are asking for a restructuring of how raids are done. It would be an adjustment to all formats.


LOL that there were bads in Paragon.


But its been a proven fact by some 10 mans that 25 mans really only have 10 good players and the rest are carried.

But now since they are 10 man they all have to be great players.


In the case of Paragon or any of the top 10 Guilds I think it's safe to say that they're all great players whether they're running 10's or 25's. Stop trying to make some point about how hard or easy 10's are since that's not relevant to the discussion.
If you truly want to bring back 25 man raiding then make special cauldrons for 25 mans and maybe even introduce a potion despencer in the game. I hear the major complaint about 25 man is that, like you said, takes way more effort. This is compounded by the fact you must police your raid to have potions and flasks. dropping a Gchest can have it's problems (tab acess and what else is in that tab and how many mats ppl take). 25-man groups feel like they have been slapped in the face with small things gone. This may stimulate 25 mans though.
01/27/2013 06:14 PMPosted by Telepathy
It applied when you guys were crying for nerfs to 10 mans because 25 man guilds had killed nef and sinestra and rag and spine and madness etc etc etc.


Where was anyone from 25mans crying for 10man nerfs?

If you are referring to this thread, some are asking for a restructuring of how raids are done. It would be an adjustment to all formats.


Thats not what I said. What I said was the 10 man guilds were crying for nerfs and saying the 10 man was so much harder because the top elite 25 man guilds had killed the bosses.

They didnt accept that all 25 people in those guilds were better than them and insisted that they still were carrying bad players and since they could do it and their 10 man guild that wasnt carrying any bad players couldnt it had to be tuned improperly.
Thats not what I said. What I said was the 10 man guilds were crying for nerfs and saying the 10 man was so much harder because the top elite 25 man guilds had killed the bosses.

They didnt accept that all 25 people in those guilds were better than them and insisted that they still were carrying bad players and since they could do it and their 10 man guild that wasnt carrying any bad players couldnt it had to be tuned improperly.

#1294
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They will never be truly balanced for these top players and a large part is due to classes.
plz dont do that 25man guilds already have it easier than 10 mans
and im not just moaning ask your self this how many guilds out there could 8 or 9 man elegon
not many if any at all but how many guilds could 22-23 man it just put 10 and 25's back on seperate lockouts like icc used to be if you want to encourage more 25 man raiding and while you at it bring back one or two 40 mans like ony used to be

also think of it this way what about the players that cant do 25's for pc reasons i could quite happily sit on ultra graphics in 25's and not worry as my pc will handle that all day long that said my wife who plays along side of me would lag and lockout like mad cos her pc is crap by comparison where the fairness in that
plz dont do that 25man guilds already have it easier than 10 mans
and im not just moaning ask your self this how many guilds out there could 8 or 9 man elegon
not many if any at all but how many guilds could 22-23 man it just put 10 and 25's back on seperate lockouts like icc used to be if you want to encourage more 25 man raiding and while you at it bring back one or two 40 mans like ony used to be

also think of it this way what about the players that cant do 25's for pc reasons i could quite happily sit on ultra graphics in 25's and not worry as my pc will handle that all day long that said my wife who plays along side of me would lag and lockout like mad cos her pc is crap by comparison where the fairness in that


What the hell is wrong with you?
Stop being such a selfish cry baby. You have not even cleared normal mode in any format! 25 man's are suffering left right and center because of the idiotic decision some blizzard Desk jockey did. You have no idea what massive impact the loss of 25 man raiding will have on wow overall. I have been the guild leader of a 25 man raiding guild for years (since 2007), we have 37 raiders and Not a single one would swap 25mans into 10mans.
Both myself and my Co-Gm have made the pledge that we rather disband the guild than convert it into 10 man format.

I advise blizzard to listen to 25 man raiders for once, the arrogance displayed by not listening to the community is mind boggling. Nobody wants this stupid thunderforged crap, it will cause more harm than good.
Give 25mans unique armor dyes to 25mans or a unique transmorg set they can loot of bosses and ffs get rid of the shared lockout.
plz dont do that 25man guilds already have it easier than 10 mans
and im not just moaning ask your self this how many guilds out there could 8 or 9 man elegon
not many if any at all but how many guilds could 22-23 man it just put 10 and 25's back on seperate lockouts like icc used to be if you want to encourage more 25 man raiding and while you at it bring back one or two 40 mans like ony used to be

also think of it this way what about the players that cant do 25's for pc reasons i could quite happily sit on ultra graphics in 25's and not worry as my pc will handle that all day long that said my wife who plays along side of me would lag and lockout like mad cos her pc is crap by comparison where the fairness in that


More 25 mans have it easier because they have more people.

If 25 mans had it easier everyone would be running them. Just look at sha, its a 25 man+ boss and everyone does him. Why? because hes easy.

Thats why most people do 10 mans now because they are easier.

Elegon you set 1 dps on each pillar. If a pillar doesnt go down you know who did it and its easier to fix the problem. First if the person went to the wrong pillar you know that. In a 25 man a person can go to the wrong pillar and its harder to recognize it.

In 10 mans you basically have 2 healers that only have to comunicate with 1 other person. In 25 man you have 5-7 that all have to work together and just cant go all out healing anyone.

In 25 mans everyone had to work together so that you dont all do the same thing at the same time. In 10 man you usually have 1 person set to do something and no one needs to help him with it.

On galarjol in 10 man you send in the dps and the healer without voodoo. In 25 man you cant just say if you dont have voodoo go in. Again more coordination is needed.

How many guilds do you know that can 20 man elegon? Probable the same amount that can 8 man it. Dont subtract the same amount of players from each size and then still try to compare the difficulty with them.
What the hell is wrong with you?
Stop being such a selfish cry baby. You have not even cleared normal mode in any format! 25 man's are suffering left right and center because of the idiotic decision some blizzard Desk jockey did. You have no idea what massive impact the loss of 25 man raiding will have on wow overall. I have been the guild leader of a 25 man raiding guild for years (since 2007), we have 37 raiders and Not a single one would swap 25mans into 10mans.
Both myself and my Co-Gm have made the pledge that we rather disband the guild than convert it into 10 man format.

I advise blizzard to listen to 25 man raiders for once, the arrogance displayed by not listening to the community is mind boggling. Nobody wants this stupid thunderforged crap, it will cause more harm than good.
Give 25mans unique armor dyes to 25mans or a unique transmorg set they can loot of bosses and ffs get rid of the shared lockout.


1st off this is not my main anymore since hunters got boned

2nd WTF did u think i posted i never said get rid of 25mans merely revert back to seperate lockouts

and 3rd why should 25man raiders get anything different / special just because they are able to raid that way that when so many cant
Why should your wife's lack of proper hardware affect my raiding?
Secondly I had a look at some of your previous posts, all the same whiny crap.

You seem to think that you are entitled to a lot of things. You believe the world is not fair because you cannot afford a better computer for your wife. Give me a break!

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