10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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The problem then becomes people finding ways to game that system. How do you quantify the loss of a single dps or healer? At some point guilds will find that it will be better to drop a dps or healer because the total raid hps or dps will go up because of the buff.


Well this was more a very simple example of the type of measure that would help out the struggling 25man groups. The point I wanted to make is that just simple incentives aren't the issue here. The issue is that 25man guilds are falling apart, and this is the main reason: not being able to regularly fill a raid that has proper composition.

Obviously you'd need something to make sure that the non-struggling can't use it as a tool that gives too much of an advantage.

You could make the system compensate, if you get +10% healing from being short a healer, you could also lose 2-3% total dps.


Yeah I want to agree with everyone who says this makes handing out loot a pain. It's just a headache for officers to hand out the bonus items. Instead give us the token that lets us upgrade an existing item, similar to the firelands item upgrades?

And also yes, please separate achievements.

Yeah these are exactly right, but it's still hard to quantify it correctly. I would like to see more interesting rewards for 25 mans. Personally I don't think you can reward one with out alienating the other.

I would personally like the higher ilvl over all in 25 mans back but that doesn't fully fix the issue either when keeping 10 vs 25 man in mind.
So, we'll possibly be at over a 600 ilevel by time this expansion finishes? Bloated ilevels don't make anyone happier.
I actually hope this works out. My friends and I play in a small guild together. We just hit level 20, with only 6 active members. Pugging four others isn't difficult to get the 10 mans going, but we all like 25 mans. Maybe now servers will see 25m pug groups forming again.

A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups.

Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds.

If you enjoy the feeling of the bigger setting shouldn't that be the reward of doing it?

What is wrong if other people feel that they are individually more important in a smaller setting? Yeah it is easier to get fewer people together. In regards to logistics you still deal with people/drama/etc.. that can sap the fun out of the game. Except you deal with it from a few less people. (meaning you are less likely to burn out)

Why not address the cause of the annoyances officers face, then see how it effects the different raiding sizes?
Here are some downsides to this system (POV: high end raider):

1) RNG of early Thunderforged drops gives some guilds advantages over others (same could be said about what items drop in the first place, however)

2) Significantly increased time it takes to get full best in slot gear, something high end raiders dislike (also see Dragon Soul rings, Crystallized Firestones, VP Upgrade System)

3) Significantly increased time it takes to gear up alts, due to backlog of gear and people being more likely to stay on their mains to try to get Thunderforged variants. Alts are vitally important for high end guilds.

4) Being "rare" on 25 and "rarer" on 10 doesn't feel rewarding, just random and inconvenient. Example of a rewarding model is Heroic Elite Protectors of the Endless, or most of Ulduar.

5) It doesn't really fundamentally make sense for better item level loot to randomly drop from a boss. See above examples - there's no difference in effort required and it's very susceptible to RNG.

6) This is not enough of an incentive, by any means, for guilds to transform from 10 to 25. If anything, this seems like a bandage to stop further hemorrhaging of 25 man guilds. In fact, the added potential loot drama and effort by officers may even cause the breakup of more 25 man guilds than the creation of them.
how many guild's are running 25 man and how many 10 ? worldwide?
This idea seems fine, I just think it's misguided.

What killed 25man raiding in my experience was the shared lockouts, not the loot. When people stopped being able to run both a 10 and a 25 on their mains, they either had to maintain two raid equipped characters or only raid once. That's when the scheduling and consistency of 10s came into play. But in my old guild, on our old low pop server - it was the lockouts that killed 25s.
So far I see most 10 man people saying "not sure this will help 25 mans, but I'm ok with it" or "rawr why you hate 10 mans" and every 25 man raid leader, the people who you specifically said were the people most burdened by the 25 man raids, who so often simply give up and go 10 man, almost all saying something to the effect of "wait, this makes my job worse, not better."
I am not going to take a 10 vs 25 man raid thing here, I feel that it will miss the bigger point. While it has already been mentioned RNG on top of more RNG is bad. This will turn out like the DS trinkets and rings or FL shared boss weapons. If you are going to pull the overly rare drop rate again you should add a smart loot system for loot drops and/or increase the drop rate of these thunderforge vs basic items each week or something starting at some point well before the next content comes out.

Now I know I am saying all this not knowing the chance for these, but please do not make us feel like we are waiting for full gear sets of legendarys without making them legendary (not actually asking for legendary full sets just making the point).
01/23/2013 10:06 AMPosted by Suialthor
If you enjoy the feeling of the bigger setting shouldn't that be the reward of doing it?

Well if thats the case, if you're in a 10man why should loot matter at all what item level it is, and why would it matter if 25man's recieve a higher chance?
So you don't want to slap 10man raiders in the face with changes so you elect to slap 25man raiders in the face instead? How does that make any sense with what you said in the post?

How does "a chance" at a 6 ilvl more item, maybe if you are lucky enough to get a drop you need, going to bring people back to 25s? In what world do you live? If thunderforged items weren't offered in 10man, I still don't think that would be enough to bring people back.

At least this made it clear to me that Blizzard doesn't give a crap about mid level 25man guilds like mine.
A Heroic Thunderforged item that is upgraded via VP in 5.3 will reach 549. This is higher than T16's normal ilvl.

I believe they mentioned they were removing VP Upgrades in 5.2. Now it makes even more sense.
This is a silly change. 25 mans already gear somewhat faster then 10s and that clearly isn't an incentive. 25s are alive and well at the upper levels of progression, where they need more help is at the lower levels of progression (normal mode guilds and pugs) and RNG on top of RNG probably isn't enough to outweigh the convenience advantage.

As a system for power creep, VP upgrades were much better, those give players far more control and are far more regular then a random drop.

For the higher end guilds this is just going to be annoying to deal with in terms of bench rotations and subs.

Basically this change benefits no one, the lower end players are better served by vp upgrades as are higher end players. This won't help encourage 25 mans at lower progression levels.

If there was some way to turn gear into thunderforged, possibly through a mat that drops from disenchanting raid gear this might not be so bad but that would see to undermine the goal of incentivizing 25 mans.
Oh boy. If we lose a few of our top raiders to poaching from the 25s it's GG for our 10 man.
01/23/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Vodkaparty
Can I have my 300K back from the BMAH buying 502 heroic level items that I assumed would be better than LFR gear?

Why would they refund a BMAH purchase?

You wouldn't have gotten that 300k back if it dropped on heroic the very next day, so why would you get it back the next tier when you knew it was going to be replaced anyway?
i don't like the idea at all loot should be fair!!! that's all
I don't think it will be enough incentive for 25s. Like, the rarity will have to be insignificant enough to move that gear quit often. Im talking more than maybe 1 or 2 a 4 hour raid day.
<<3) It's going to be drama when someone takes a non-TF item and then one drops shortly thereafter. People don't like feeling like they screwed up or were screwed by a loot system by taking loot. You also don't want to encourage strategizing about loot so people sandbag and don't, say, take the non-TF version of a trinket because they want to get the first TF version.>>

This right here. X1000000. I can only imagine the loot drama that's going to come from this decision.

25-man raids having a slightly higher chance to drop a rare item isn't incentive for anyone to make the switch back. Sorry, but it's not. In fact, considering loot drama is one (of many) reasons that people leave guilds, I can only imagine this causing more guild turnover - especially if, for example, a raider gets the first regular version of an item and then a thunderforged one drops the next week. Common sense would be to give that thunderforged item where it would be the biggest upgrade, but suddenly that person who got the regular version the week before feels shafted. So if you give it to the next person, the first one feels shafted. If you give it to the first one, the second one gets pissed because the first has now gotten that item twice. It WILL happen.

So you're just creating a whole bunch of new drama and problems and resolving pretty much nothing in regards to the 25/10 situation.

Sorry, but I think this is a terrible idea. I'm a 25-man raider and I would hate to see this happen.
/sigh I imagine my guild is going to semi-implode with this news :(
Thanks for the free reddit karma.

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