10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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My issue, and I see a lot of others here with the same concern, is RNG. Yes, the loot in this game is highly reliant on RNG, and we should be used to it by now. However, adding another RNG factor is not really going to do much for 25m unless it's more guarenteed. Thus, pointing us back in the old direction of higher ilevel gear from 25m. I don't think this is enough incentive to get people to step back into larger groups. Yes, a "chance" at a higher level item is nice, but when we are doing bosses for progression, it's not enough to make us beat our heads over recruiting and other issues.

What if 25m dropped a few different items. They could be same ilevel, but different. For example, 25m raids drop extra weapons or other slots that are high in demand. The item level would remain the same, but guilds might feel like grouping back up and working hard to fill spots if the pieces are worth it.
<<3) It's going to be drama when someone takes a non-TF item and then one drops shortly thereafter. People don't like feeling like they screwed up or were screwed by a loot system by taking loot. You also don't want to encourage strategizing about loot so people sandbag and don't, say, take the non-TF version of a trinket because they want to get the first TF version.>>

This right here. X1000000. I can only imagine the loot drama that's going to come from this decision.

25-man raids having a slightly higher chance to drop a rare item isn't incentive for anyone to make the switch back. Sorry, but it's not. In fact, considering loot drama is one (of many) reasons that people leave guilds, I can only imagine this causing more guild turnover - especially if, for example, a raider gets the first regular version of an item and then a thunderforged one drops the next week. Common sense would be to give that thunderforged item where it would be the biggest upgrade, but suddenly that person who got the regular version the week before feels shafted. So if you give it to the next person, the first one feels shafted. If you give it to the first one, the second one gets pissed because the first has now gotten that item twice. It WILL happen.

So you're just creating a whole bunch of new drama and problems and resolving pretty much nothing in regards to the 25/10 situation.

Sorry, but I think this is a terrible idea. I'm a 25-man raider and I would hate to see this happen.


Loot Drama happens regardless of this change. So this would be somewhat trivial.
This doesn't feel like enough of an incentive to keep a 25s team together, if you're struggling to get people and considering dropping to 10s. And it also doesn't feel like a compelling reason for a 10s guild with a large bench to try and move into 25s.

It's a good change, but it doesn't feel like enough to keep 25s alive. That being said, with the reaction in the past to all of the other different options for 10s vs 25s, I really don't know what else there is left to try.
A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups...and we want to support the larger raiding guilds.


Please explain how providing an extra "small chance" at higher loot level will make a raid leader or officer's job easier? Do you really think a "small chance" at higher loot will get 10 person teams to form up 25 person teams or stop a 25 person team from breaking up?

Perhaps you need to consider what raid leaders and officers struggle with when forming groups and managing a guild. You may be surprised (or not) to find that many of the problems are common.

In either size guild/raid, a lost or absent tank or healer will result in stress. You can't pug a tank or healer while working on progression. Keeping an extra tank or healer to avoid the situation would mean benching one every two weeks (rotation) which is not fun for them. Yet, you need a consistent team to make progress. Especially since the new raids require more precision and timing.

Perhaps if you allowed a range for a raid, 9-11 or 23-27, it would do more to help raid leaders and officers manage the reality of putting a raid team together than loot. I.E a raid that adapts to the number of players present...within reason.
01/23/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Neonin
how many guild's are running 25 man and how many 10 ? worldwide?


Probably less 25s now but for the reasons they described. It's just harder to maintain a 25man guild because there are more people - we have a hard enough time getting 10 people online on scheduled raid nights, I can't imagine more than doubling that.

Our guild only exists because the raiding core didn't enjoy 25s and seized the opportunity to do 10s once it was a viable alternative. Sadly the guild we left is reduced to doing 10s now as well simply because our server is average (average can't easily support 25s these days). But I still know a lot of people would be interested in doing them, while I myself cannot stand them.

I think the only thing that would make me feel like I "had" to do 25s was if the ilvl was straight-up better or if they separated the lockouts again *shudder*.
If they think that almost anything will "bring back 25's", it simply won't happen. Best case for them is a massive change that will essentially force players back in to 25 mans and then quickly burn out because it is not what they like and end up in the negative. It is FAR easier to move to a 10 man from a 25 man than the reverse. If Blizzard really wanted 25 mans to be prominent they would have looked to fix the problem a long time ago.

All this does is make 25's and 10's more RNG while pissing off people on both sides. You cannot constantly say the two are now equal and then keep looking to reward one over the other. This was obviously a mistake you made years ago when you didn't just make 15 man raids but that is the bed you have made. I would think different titles and achievement mounts like in WOTLK would be more welcomed as it is least something that would visibly distinguish the two groups from one another while not adding more problems as already outlined by simply have more RNG loot.
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts.


Logically, I think this is a great attempt to help the 25 mans stick around as well as provide continuing upgrades from older bosses. I don't think it will cause many 10 mans to convert to 25 man, but it might help keep some of the current 25 mans going.

Practically, there will be problems with guilds with point system loot distribution. There are players in many guilds that will not spend points on normal gear if there is better gear available from the same boss (the new Thunderforged type). The new ilvls also cause complications on upgrades which in turn cause the previous problem.

A solution to this is to change the new items from a chance to be Thunderforged, to a token of some sort that can be used to upgrade any non-tier item (similar to Firelands, but for any non-tier item). This will cause players to have to have the normal regular item before upgrading which eliminates the loot distribution problem. Rather than having a vendor like Firelands, to use the token a player would have to travel to a special forge to upgrade the desired piece of gear. There could even be a new action added just for the forge like a jumping hammer slam (something epic, you know?).
So I heard you like rng loot so we put some more rng in your rng loot.....
This doesn't feel like enough of an incentive to keep a 25s team together, if you're struggling to get people and considering dropping to 10s. And it also doesn't feel like a compelling reason for a 10s guild with a large bench to try and move into 25s.

It's a good change, but it doesn't feel like enough to keep 25s alive. That being said, with the reaction in the past to all of the other different options for 10s vs 25s, I really don't know what else there is left to try.


very well stated

01/23/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Gankz
So I heard you like rng loot so we put some more rng in your rng loot.....


so you can rng while you rng!
Without a fixed method of getting Thunderforged upgrade outside of it dropping from the boss itself, this is going to be atrocious to deal with in the 10m environment. DEing that one piece that no one can use over and over again that's Thunderforged is going to get old real fast.

Given that bosses drop 2 or 1 and 1, even if the Thunderforged rate was the same as 25, the actual dissemination of Thunderforged gear in a 10m vs a 25m is going to be considerably slower. And it's going to be hell on token bosses that drop 1 and 1. Better hope you never have bad RNG ever.

If there's an alternative method to upgrade to Thunderforged from a non-Thunderforged piece, then whatever. As it stands though, it's going to be bad and if/when upgrades return in 5.3, it'll get even worse. This is adding a lot of unnecessary complexity on a system that is right now somewhat convoluted as is.
I can appreciate that blizzard wants to encourage 25 man raiding, but I don't like this idea.
As stated, it just adds more frustration by means of the RNG. If this concept of another level of loot is what we're getting, a token that is consumed to upgrade existing gear is a much better idea. Whether it's a general token, weapon, armor, etc can be worked out, but the idea of a token instead of another RNG piece of gear is much better.

On the 10 man side of things, which I currently run, these things are going to be a pain. In 10s we already have a lot of useless gear that has to be disenchanted. So on the rare chance 10s get one of these thunder forged items, it may not be for a spec that we even have in the raid. A thunder forged token however would not go to waste.

Really though a few extra pieces of loot isn't what 25s need, as they already get loot so much faster due to less wasted loot. I would suggest pursuing changes to make guild recruitment easier, something to encourage people to play on lower population servers instead of clustering on the top 5 or so servers, or something to reduce the weekly tedium.

The tedium change could be any way to reduce the time required for capping valor points, gathering lesser coins, or raid consumables.
Please, take my previous post in account...

Instead of the RNG on random Thunderforged items that im sure will make the things even more frustating, like people waiting forever for a BIS drop that never drops, or even later in progression when people will have T2 and T4 bonus and Thunderforged itens for that slots will drop (and will be useless), make 'Thunderstones', like the Battle stones for pet battles, so we could use the Thunderstones to upgrade an item to a Thunderforged one.

Im sure his will cause less drama... Like someone already said in another post, think of the 10 man Groups, where not always every class is covered, so imagine a Mail Thunderforged (agi or spirit/int) item dropping but theres no Shamans and/or Hunters to use it, maybe a Plate healer item, but theres no Holy Pally...

Very frustating having a rare item droped but beeing desinchanted...
Loot is already RNG enough. I'm all for giving 25mans more incentive but added RNG is just frustrating and leads to even more problems.
01/23/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Sephina
Practically, there will be problems with guilds with point system loot distribution. There are players in many guilds that will not spend points on normal gear if there is better gear available from the same boss (the new Thunderforged type). The new ilvls also cause complications on upgrades which in turn cause the previous problem.


I absolutely agree with those bringing up this point. I almost fear that a system like this will only hurt more 25m guilds. Not to say everyone is greedy, but loot distribution is one of the difficulties with running the larger raids. Adding something that hides under more RNG will possibly only complicate the lives of officers and guild leaders more. Raiding isn't always about loot, but for many players it's the reason they log in on time.
01/23/2013 09:13 AMPosted by Oatz
Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.


They already do. This just increases that effect. In 25m loot is much more likely to be used, plus the ratio of loot to players is higher than 10m.

If you're going to go this route, at least have 10man drop 3 pieces instead of 2 (or perhaps 3 pieces on tier bosses, like it was in FL).


This is they key and needs to be the focus. 25man already has higher usage %, already has a higher drop % v. number of players, and more % brezzes for progression, less group comp for buff maximizing. If you like 25man style, you have benefits for it already. If you're going to accentuate loot quality for 25man you should balance that for 10 man in some way. I'm opposed to the measure of the higher Thunderforged % drops in 25man for the simple reason it isn't needed and it potentially will hurt 10man participation. But I love the other benefits of the Thunderforged items.
Really interesting idea!

Couple questions:
1 - How does this solve the wall groups hit any differently than upgrading ilvl with valor(aside from ilvl upgrades being disabled in 5.2)? It seems like a similar concept(gear with slightly higher ilvl) except you are are hoping for RNG instead of having control on where/when to upgrade an item to get over a "wall" your group faces.

2 - Would this system be a complimentary system(AKA can these "thunderforged" items be upgraded?) to upgrade ilvl upgrade system or a potential replacement? I find having the control to upgrade critical items when I want(wep/trinkets) is something I really enjoy and having the ability to make the decision feels rewarding.

3 - While I am totally okay with giving incentives to 25m raiding I am fearful about the ballooning effect increased drop rates can have in 25s that make individuals feel compelled to do 25s for maximum efficiency(as an example: think back to Legendary staff component drop rates and how much the increased chances of drops significantly helped 25s v 10s).

4 - Do these items drop in addition to the normal amount of loot or do they have a chance to drop instead of the normal piece of the same loot?(Does rng pick the item and then roll again to see if its going to be "thunderforged"?)

5 - As an aside, would it be possible to use Elder charms for a chance increase the drop on these items?

All in all, sounds awesome and this type of incentive is something that could encourage me to get back into raiding beyond LFR. A mechanism that rewards consistent effort, even if stuck at a certain boss for weeks, still allows me to feel like I am accomplishing something!

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