10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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So none of the previews for 5.2 from Blizzard include any mention of "Thunderforged", and this topic has been de-stickied meaning with no further Blue posts.

Seems to me the idea has been scrapped. I am not complaining - at least insofar as this idea not being done - but I note once again we are in "don't talk about it" mode with all the blues.

I fear should any changes actually occur, they are not going to happen this expansion and it feels like Blizzard is hoping that the problem will just magically go away.
I'll withhold judgement on the system until we see how long we have this raid tier. Eventually, the 10-mans will catch up in item levels to the 25-mans and all will be good. If the drops are even slightly out of sync though, we could be looking at weeks/months of 25-man guilds being far better geared than 10-mans.

I like where your intentions are, as there is a catch-up mechanic for 10-mans now so they aren't permanently behind. I just hope the drops rates are tuned properly.


Exactly my thoughts when i first read this. Looking at patterns in the past with these types of things I can almost guarantee this will be way outta whack first few weeks.
First I will say I am not a reg. 25man raider, but from my minor experiences I tend to belive that 25man are (if in only this way) easier than 10man. Please correct me if my statement is incorrect or inaccurate.

In 25mans you have more diversity in class, spec, and therefore raid comp. Dose not seem raid fight mechanics correctly compensate for all the variables a 25man raid can accomplish, and seems like 25man bosses mechanics are 10mans with slightly more HP (if at all).

So my logic is, I thought 25mans are already fair to 10mans in that for your hard work logistically organizing a 25man you are rewarded with a slightly easier "flow" to make it easier to manage your group, and if your raid is smart enough possibly a "raging rapids flow" compared to the limits of a 10man. I dont think with current 10/25man boss mechanic differences there should b any xtra rate of special gear dropping unless its sum thing like Lich King legendary quest.

i have no objections in rewarding people for honest work, but seems 25man groups dont realize the benefits they already have and think they deserve more at the expense of small friendly groups of 10mans. If you don't consider the amount of hurdles forming a 25 (I mean come on how hard is it to say to another 10 man guild "hey lets put our groups together n raid 25 man tonight")compared to 10 i would say 10 mans are harder because of the lack of resources a 25 man has.

This comes from the point of view from a 10man raid team just getting organized in this expansion and worried if the balance of this new drop mechanic is not correct or not addressed quickly enough, if off at launch, could kill the casual days of pugging a 10man.

I say bring back 40man and make this gear guarantee drop there ;)
what you guys really need to do, is make 10 and 25 raids lockout separate like it was in vanilla. this give raiders more chances to raid, get gear, and get the full benefit of how much money we are spending. We are tired of having to choose between a 10m or a 25m. We want to be able to do both without being completely focused on one or the other!
Crithto you and your 80 paged threads :)

Thanks for the update I always like good news!
Best news I've heard yet with 5.2.
Seems to me like Blizz has this backwards. It should be the 10 mans that get rewarded, since "every" player must be: raid aware, skilled in their class and be able to follow directions. I've seen so many 25's where 5 or 6 ppl die and they get the kill. Why should that be rewarded. Most all fights (in early stages where ppl need gear) 1 person can't die in a 10M. You can get by with a few dying in 25. Very disappointed about this. The only person that 25's are in any way harder for is the raid leader. Now he's the one that should get a better chance at better loots.
So none of the previews for 5.2 from Blizzard include any mention of "Thunderforged", and this topic has been de-stickied meaning with no further Blue posts.

Seems to me the idea has been scrapped. I am not complaining - at least insofar as this idea not being done - but I note once again we are in "don't talk about it" mode with all the blues.

I fear should any changes actually occur, they are not going to happen this expansion and it feels like Blizzard is hoping that the problem will just magically go away.


They just added nearly 100 more Thunderforged items:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3137-Patch-5-2-PTR-Build-16618-PTR-Class-Balance
So none of the previews for 5.2 from Blizzard include any mention of "Thunderforged", and this topic has been de-stickied meaning with no further Blue posts.

Seems to me the idea has been scrapped. I am not complaining - at least insofar as this idea not being done - but I note once again we are in "don't talk about it" mode with all the blues.

I fear should any changes actually occur, they are not going to happen this expansion and it feels like Blizzard is hoping that the problem will just magically go away.


They just added nearly 100 more Thunderforged items:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/3137-Patch-5-2-PTR-Build-16618-PTR-Class-Balance

not to mention the changes they just made today here http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8226552/Patch_52_PTR_and_Patch_Notes_-_February_25-2_25_2013 that say "Throne of Thunder raid bosses in Normal and Heroic difficulties have a chance of dropping items with the Thunderforged designation. Thunderforged items are 6 item levels higher than their Normal or Heroic counterparts and will drop more frequently in 25-player raids."
I'll withhold judgement on the system until we see how long we have this raid tier. Eventually, the 10-mans will catch up in item levels to the 25-mans and all will be good. If the drops are even slightly out of sync though, we could be looking at weeks/months of 25-man guilds being far better geared than 10-mans.

I like where your intentions are, as there is a catch-up mechanic for 10-mans now so they aren't permanently behind. I just hope the drops rates are tuned properly.

Haven't seen this catch up mechanic you speak of. What is it?
02/25/2013 02:02 PMPosted by Tajuu
what you guys really need to do, is make 10 and 25 raids lockout separate like it was in vanilla. this give raiders more chances to raid, get gear, and get the full benefit of how much money we are spending. We are tired of having to choose between a 10m or a 25m. We want to be able to do both without being completely focused on one or the other!


I agree, I would also like to do both. Its bad enough that 25's are easier for most people, but now my raiders have to make more of a sacrifice to stay because of this new RNG on awesome loots. If they separated it, my raiders could stay loyal (making my life alot easier) and my raiders that can handle 25's could still go pug them on off-raid nights. Everyone should be able to experience the full content w/o having to switch guilds. Imho
02/25/2013 09:16 PMPosted by Soarineagle
Seems to me like Blizz has this backwards. It should be the 10 mans that get rewarded, since "every" player must be: raid aware, skilled in their class and be able to follow directions. I've seen so many 25's where 5 or 6 ppl die and they get the kill. Why should that be rewarded. Most all fights (in early stages where ppl need gear) 1 person can't die in a 10M. You can get by with a few dying in 25. Very disappointed about this. The only person that 25's are in any way harder for is the raid leader. Now he's the one that should get a better chance at better loots.


25 players require more loot to get geared, thus the higher droprate.

Though, they're going around this system the wrong way. Implemented as it is, it won't really do much besides cause drama with "Thunderforged BiS" gear.

What they SHOULD have done is utilized the upgrade system, and made Thunderforged gear come 2/2 upgraded.
I don't see this bringing 25 man raiding back however I think it will be enough to prevent 25 man from becoming even less used.
02/26/2013 12:32 AMPosted by Awkwardz
Seems to me like Blizz has this backwards. It should be the 10 mans that get rewarded, since "every" player must be: raid aware, skilled in their class and be able to follow directions. I've seen so many 25's where 5 or 6 ppl die and they get the kill. Why should that be rewarded. Most all fights (in early stages where ppl need gear) 1 person can't die in a 10M. You can get by with a few dying in 25. Very disappointed about this. The only person that 25's are in any way harder for is the raid leader. Now he's the one that should get a better chance at better loots.


25 players require more loot to get geared, thus the higher droprate.

Though, they're going around this system the wrong way. Implemented as it is, it won't really do much besides cause drama with "Thunderforged BiS" gear.

What they SHOULD have done is utilized the upgrade system, and made Thunderforged gear come 2/2 upgraded.

More people to gear means more loot drops, which already happens. I mean, sure it doesnt matter much, we'll get the raid done without thunderforged gear. But why should 25's get their thunderforged first. Probably half the people that get thunderforged 1st will be ppl that spent a third of the fight waiting to accept a rez. I think they should just make it a rare drop in both cases equally. IDK..t just rly makes no sense. Of course the people that halfway know their class and get carried love this idea..lol
02/26/2013 12:25 AMPosted by Soarineagle
Its bad enough that 25's are easier for most people, but now my raiders have to make more of a sacrifice to stay because of this new RNG on awesome loots.


I am pretty sure this debate is dead in the water since the #1 10 man guild in the world said 10 mans were significantly easier then 25's. AND if for some reason 10's were harder then 25's you would see all the top guilds playing 10 man... but they aren't.

Please leave this debate alone..
02/26/2013 06:24 AMPosted by Leadbelly
Its bad enough that 25's are easier for most people, but now my raiders have to make more of a sacrifice to stay because of this new RNG on awesome loots.


I am pretty sure this debate is dead in the water since the #1 10 man guild in the world said 10 mans were significantly easier then 25's. AND if for some reason 10's were harder then 25's you would see all the top guilds playing 10 man... but they aren't.

Please leave this debate alone..

Yet only 6 out of the top 40 are 10 man guilds...yeh 10 must be easier.

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