10- & 25-Player Raid Loot Changes – Patch 5.2

General Discussion
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Honestly, I think that this change, but what would really make me happy would be to split the 10 and 25 raid achievements up, or at the very least the realm first ones.
Maybe it's just me, but you already have the solution to 10s v. 25s. You're doing it in Asia already.

Why not at least TRY that before coming up with some other crazy, overcomplicated process that ultimately relies on the RNG, which, by now has embittered a number of players.
So whats to keep our Bis list from consiting of 5 off set pieces do to them having higher ilvl than the tier which cant be upgraded?

I don't thinkk this is enough to get people into raiding 25mans again but its awesome you guys are trying to do something.
Instead of actual gear dropping with a higher item level, have random thunderforge tokens drop instead (thunderforged accessory token(neck, bracers, back, rings,feet) , thunderforged armor token (helm,chest,gloves,legs,shoulders), etc) so that raid leaders can distribute them as they see fit. Make them rarer since they can upgrade a variety of pieces as well as slapping the appropriate restrictions on the tokens (can't use for tier gear, for example.)

You then go to the Thunderforge...take your token + raid drop and "forge" a piece of gear +6 ilvl's higher.
So this seems like a decent idea but still seems off to me here is my proposal for what "Thunderforged" gear should be: make it a fully upgraded version of the item that can't be upgraded any further. That way 10 mans/the unlucky can still get them, in meaningful quantity, but have to spend vp to achieve it.
01/23/2013 10:09 AMPosted by Cyberthug
If you enjoy the feeling of the bigger setting shouldn't that be the reward of doing it?

Well if thats the case, if you're in a 10man why should loot matter at all what item level it is, and why would it matter if 25man's recieve a higher chance?

Personally I do not care. I've reached an apathy of sorts and after a couple of years off I enjoy the game more as a result.

However I do care about the community and I think forcing people to do 25s in order to max there character is not good. I feel it leads to even more drama etc... in the 25s than would normally be there.

Like I said before. Address the annoyances that officers must deal with first, then see how that affects the raid sizes.
Totally on board with the idea.

Great change :)
The biggest issue I see, and I apologize if this has been mentioned in thread previously, is thus:
25's will have a higher chance to drop Thunderforged gear, however that gear also has to be split between a larger group of players. To maximize the chance of receiving the gear by not having to worry about the larger chance it could go to another player, I believe players will still favor 10m.

We all acknowledge, officially and otherwise, that the problem 25s face is logistical and related to organization. So... FIX that. Stop using gear incentives to get people to do things they would otherwise prefer not to do (including dailies, etc).
Ok quick math lesson here, not quoting anyone this time either.

10 mans get 2 piece of loot per boss and 25 mans get 5 piece per boss with 1 extra for the last boss. Lets you Vaults and HoF as and example. Assuming in both cases every piece of loot is a mains spec upgrade to be used by someone ASAP, a 10 man raid would get 12 piece meaning an average of 1.2 piece per person and in a 25 man there would be 31 piece meaning an average of 1.24 piece per person. As said before not a big difference not a not even enough for a margin of error in statics if I am correct.

Now as for the 2 chance per boss for that one piece you want vs the 5 chances. Each of those chances has the same separate percent chance of it dropping (currently) so yes there are more chances that what you and you alone (as well as a short list of who else needs that one piece) want. The problem is if you are only counting yourself in this then you are missing the whole point that there are 9 or 24 other people with you.

Lastly, the 1 tier piece vs 3 tier pieces. Many people forget about the fact that while 10 man gets an even 1 to 1 drop from non tier and tier piece 25 man gets a 2 to 3 drop for those in currently 3 out of the 5 tier dropping bosses. Many of those non tier piece are just as important as tier piece, trinket and sha-touched weapons for example. And while the chance for ONE of your tier piece to drop in 25 mans CAN be greater there is also the chance you will have to fight with more 9 other people just for that one piece.

In the end my point is please stop trying to say one is better then the other cause even if you want to go into more detail (and caring) then I did here and can prove that one is better for drops then the other, it wont be by much.
01/23/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Fuzzywashere
A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups...and we want to support the larger raiding guilds.

Please explain how providing an extra "small chance" at higher loot level will make a raid leader or officer's job easier? Do you really think a "small chance" at higher loot will get 10 person teams to form up 25 person teams or stop a 25 person team from breaking up?

Perhaps you need to consider what raid leaders and officers struggle with when forming groups and managing a guild. You may be surprised (or not) to find that many of the problems are common.

In either size guild/raid, a lost or absent tank or healer will result in stress. You can't pug a tank or healer while working on progression. Keeping an extra tank or healer to avoid the situation would mean benching one every two weeks (rotation) which is not fun for them. Yet, you need a consistent team to make progress. Especially since the new raids require more precision and timing.

Perhaps if you allowed a range for a raid, 9-11 or 23-27, it would do more to help raid leaders and officers manage the reality of putting a raid team together than loot. I.E a raid that adapts to the number of players present...within reason.

This is a delightfully intuitive perspective. Fix the actual problems, quit dangling carrots to get people do what you want them to do.
Unless the drop rate is very substantial in 25 man and almost non-existent in 10 man, I don't think this will incentivize running 25 mans. It's going to take longer to disburse the pieces to 25 people than it will to 10 people. Hopefully the drop rate reflects that, but even then if it's super low I doubt many would bother to run 25 mans just for a low chance to maybe get the piece they want and have it be Thunderforged.

I think the way to fix 25 man raiding is to make the heroic 25 man content clearly and undeniably more difficult than 10 man heroics. If this is the case, everybody will know that the 25 man raiders are in the game for the real challenge (that is, challenging content plus the added challenge of maintaining a larger roster) while 10 man players are in it for the gear and fun without the higher level of difficulty. I do not mean to suggest that such an attitude for 10 mans is a bad thing at all - just that it would be clear that a person in 25 man heroic content would be undertaking a greater challenge.

Blizzard has made it clear that they want the same loot to drop. That's fine, and it's also somewhat inconsistent with Thunderforging. But better loot is not the only thing that makes people want to raid 25s. Prestige is a factor too.

I would also note - bring back separate realm firsts for 10 and 25, and lock them so that if you receive one you can't receive the other. Whatever difficulty they are comparatively, there is an undeniable difference in playing with 10 or 25 people. Such a difference should be noted.

This! Just accept the consequences were bad for the decision you made, and revert them back. You've already fixed it elsewhere because of "player demand". Do it here, too!

Yeah and many are calling that people would be forced to do 25 man raids. it isn't just one poster. There are several here saying that.
This is an absolutely awful change. I like how all the 25m player complain about how much more difficult a 25m raid is because of LOGISTICS, but completely ignore the fact that many of the raids are EASIER because of the margin for error. This is specifically true for heals.

The real reason all the top guilds in the world do 25m is because it is easier. When you're to the point where you have 100% solid players in your guild, the logistics difference between the two disappears.

This is an absolutely awful change, and absolutely terrible timing to do so. Make this change in a futuer expansion, not middle of an existing one. I'm extremely disappointed in blizzard.
I don't get why this is needed. What's needed is getting rid of the shared lockout.

Keep the gear the same between 10's and 25's, but get rid of the lockout.

LK was so popular because I could run 10man with my normal group and then run 25 mans with my other friends.

The only problem with that model was having like a million different ilvl's between the two- thus making some people feel like they needed to run the higher ilvl content in order to do well in 10's. We have that attitude now when it comes to LFR and even dailies. That attitude is never going to change.

The shared lockout was one of the reasons people left- not the main reason but one of them. By keeping the ilvl's the same between the two, I won't feel like I absolutely must run the 25 man every week, but the option would be there if I wanted to. After doing your 10/25 man for the week, there really wasn't much else to do.

I get people asking me all of the time "Hey are you saved to such and such? We need a healer/dps/tank." It's usually a specific toon they want. I hate having to tell my friends "Sorry, I'm saved for the week." This happened a lot in Cata.

What this current model has done though is ruin a lot of server communities- especially the smaller servers.
2. Make a public announcement that 10s and 25s are not the same. You gave it a good shot. We applaud you. A++ for effort, would run raid again. But at the end of the day, 10s and 25s are not the same. It's time to admit this, and move forward, without finessing answers like "well this boss is harder in 25s, and this boss here is much harder in 10". SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT:

LFR: Easy
25: Medium
10: Hard

Accept this. Move forward with this design.

Fixed :p

Anyway, I like this idea better than the WotLK model (or what is being done in Asia). However, is Blizz looking at it from a big picture where it all averages out over thousands of raid groups or are they balancing the gearing based on the "outside the norm". Lady Luck is a fickle mistess. If 25s need some special tag on an item that is easier for them to get that makes it feel "worth" doing then it is better than the alternative.
I can't seem to edit my post so I'm going to put up a few continuations of the thoughts I've previously posted.

A simple solution to perhaps making it always a "good thing" when a Thunderforged piece drops is make it that if it is DE'd because it cannot be used for whatever reason, it gives some Blood Spirit-esque item that you can take over to the Lightning Forge (or maybe a Thunder Forge inside the raid, gated a few bosses in to get a sense of accomplishment when you get there?) and upgrade a non-Thunderforged piece to the higher quality. This means that the 10m rng-fest this is currently set up to be will not be all that bad and 25s can get to full Thunderforged at quite a faster pace when compared to 10s.

It also could potentially introduce a little bit of strategic element to it - ie is it better to upgrade someone else in the raid to Thunderforged x or use the piece as is, which seems like it could be an interesting choice (although some choices won't actually be choices).

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