The "Point" (or lack thereof) of Raiding

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
I have to wonder how many raiders would still raid if raids were like challenge modes, instead.

Just a curiosity.


Well, most of them would do it once to kill the boss and then stop doing it because there's no real advantage to killing them again.

Also, the bosses would never decrease in difficulty. This is a big factor because once you've wiped on bosses forever you expect them to get easier over time. Part of that is due to mastering the strategy, but most of it is due to gearing up. Take that away and you're just going from wipefest to wipefest, and the potential to keep going through wipefests every single week.

Speaking personally, I have absolutely no desire for timed raids, either, or rewards based on timed raids. Just one example of why that sucks: In 10 and 25 man currently, you can probably kill the boss if one of your recruits or hell, members, messes up a bit. In a timed run, not so much. It would magnify screw-ups to the point of absurdity and make it almost impossible to bring new people in.
01/20/2013 08:00 AMPosted by Badilyn
Gradual, scheduled nerfs though would be a light at the end of the tunnel for struggling groups and would provide that extra bit of motivation for the All Stars to work hard and get their kills in there before the deadline.


And they increase the pressure on guilds still progressing. That can cause them to fracture under the strain as they have members jumping ship to better progressed guilds just to be able to do the content before it is nerfed.

The DS solution of 'turning the buff off' does not work, given it leads to issues with guild recruitment and perception of progression. If a guild is 10/16 normal mode and doesn't have the nerf active, but another guild who was 9/16 leaves the buff on, then shoots through to 12/16... people will think the guild with the nerf active is the better guild and jump ship to that one. Meaning the 10/16 guild loses members and fractures.

That was the issue with DS.

Blanket nerfs only dumb raiding down. LFR is there to see the content for those who don't want the normal / heroic challenge. Normal is tuned upwards for those that want a challenge for their skill level, with varying bosses on that to encourage getting better... and heroic is a step up from that. Which is how it should be.

You raid for loot, not the progression which is why you feel something is lacking. You are raiding for the wrong reasons. The loot is a means to an end, the end being killing the next boss in the progression line.

Also raiding is highly social and it can lead to some hilarious nights. Far more entertaining than sitting in front of a tv whilst the next soap or 'chat' show is airing.
Ilvl upgrades have replaced blanket nerfs.

Blizzard wants people to feel like they're progressing and overcoming a challenge rather than feeling like the encounters are being nerfed to a level they can handle. I don't think we'll ever see ICC or DS-style zone-wide nerfs again. Instead we'll just have an upgrade NPC who takes a vacation every other patch.

1) Increase the gap between regular raid and lfr pieces. There should be little to no decision making to be done when you obtain a regular item level piece for a slot you have a raid finder piece in. It should be a no brainer to use the regular item (unless of course it breaks up a set bonus).
Yes!


2) Instate nerfs for regular raids at known intervals. All Star teams have a predetermined amount of time to work on release content to get their kills before the nerfs come in. I would suggest 4 week intervals to start with 10 percent nerfs taking place after that, and another 10 percent 4 weeks later, etc. People could make arguments for any interval, longer or shorter, but I'm using this as a concept timeline to get the discussion started. The point to the nerfs is in hopes of stimulating progress instead of having groups get stagnant & sick of running the same bosses over and over week after week. Raid finder already makes me tired of seeing the same encounters over and over again - progression in normal modes NEEDS to happen for average groups to stay interested.
Hmm... This is a pretty extreme nerf schedule. My team was still working on leveling to 90 and getting all 463 gear the first 4 weeks of MsV. The first time we went in, one of our tanks was 450 ilvl and the other was lower. The healers just couldn't keep them up. So, I'd prefer that the first time I go into a raid with the minimum of gear, that it not be already nerfed. On the other hand, I'm sure that most players would like nerfs sooner rather than later so that they have access to the content.


but really, shouldn't being organized enough to clear 10 normal bosses per week reward you with enough vps to be done collecting? Getting a whopping total of 200vps for clearing the 5 bosses we had on farm still had me faced with running all of the raid finders and doing at least a few dailies to get capped, which has caused me to be tired of doing all of those things, as opposed to just one or two.
Yes! Many of my raiders don't cap valor most weeks. The lfr and daily grind is just too time consuming. It's also super discouraging when you don't have enough time in your week to cap, knowing that you are ultimately letting your team down. It would be nice if got more valor from the bosses we're farming in 10 man so that we could reach valor cap with just a few more dungeons or dailies.
The real reason you raid is because multiplayer RPG raid gameplay really can't be found anywhere else besides WoW and WoW knockoffs. No points for guessing whether WoW or the knockoffs do it better either.
LFR can never be an alternative for someone who wants a true progression challenge. The default mode is just too easy. See: Stone Guard, a fight with lots of normal mode mechanics that becomes "stack up and AoE" in LFR. You can do the mechanics on your own but then it just feels like you're playing single player with placeholders around you.

And look at what happened when they accidentally put an LFR boss in that wasn't AFK ez mode. See: Garalon, people running around amok with pheromones, people causing Crush either because they really just don't pay attention to where they're standing or because they find it funny. That encounter was hotfixed pretty quickly (I'm actually still somewhat proud of my pre-nerf kill of that). The easiness of LFR has been complained about in connection with the loot system. It's a personal loot system, making LFR more single player. You don't ever think "hey, that guy is doing great dps, glad he's with us." You generally only notice when people are underperforming, and then demand that player be kicked so you can go back to tunneling the boss.

So if you want a challenge, go Normal mode? I guess the most complaints come from people now caught in a middle-ground between LFR is too dumb/easy but Normal is too hard. They were going to implement blanket nerfs, but instead went with the Upgrade system, to accomplish the same effect but make it feel like the player was getting more powerful. Of course, these benefits were accompanied by complaints of "I have to cap Valor every week?" Point being, no system has been, is, or ever will be perfect. There will always be some QQ.

Heroics stand alone in my opinion. They are for people definitely looking for the highest challenge. One key here is that the progression from Normal to Heroic is much more natural and intuitive than LFR to Normal, but that may be intended. It just might not be the intention that people running LFR are expected to graduate into Normals. They're just too different.

You could make raid like Challenge modes but it'd very much change up the flow of the game. You'd definitely need progressive blanket nerfs I feel, because guilds would get stonewalled and instead of getting more gear from previous bosses to make it easier, they'd just be endlessly stuck, and Blizzard has said they specifically use blanket nerfs for when this happens.

As a side note, gear is a side perk for me. Makes my job easier. I like when I get some. My top priority and motivator is killing bosses.

TL;DR: LFR will always be AFK ezmode, some people get left in the middle of LFR-Normal, need for blanket nerfs is debatable. And no matter what, there will always be QQ.
01/19/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Badilyn
1) Increase the gap between regular raid and lfr pieces. There should be little to no decision making to be done when you obtain a regular item level piece for a slot you have a raid finder piece in. It should be a no brainer to use the regular item (unless of course it breaks up a set bonus).


I'm against this for 2 reasons:

1) The gap is already 1 full tier, and this can potentially lead to scaling problems. It really contributes to the exponential scaling that we see every expansion. Widen the gap, you increase the problem. Also plays a role in tuning.

2) These gearing decisions are just about the only ones you ever need to make, and it makes the game interesting. I'm not lying when I say that it got really boring the past few expansions when every tier was just "Hey, upgrade this slot with the higher item level equivalent."

2) Instate nerfs for regular raids at known intervals. All Star teams have a predetermined amount of time to work on release content to get their kills before the nerfs come in. I would suggest 4 week intervals to start with 10 percent nerfs taking place after that, and another 10 percent 4 weeks later, etc. People could make arguments for any interval, longer or shorter, but I'm using this as a concept timeline to get the discussion started. The point to the nerfs is in hopes of stimulating progress instead of having groups get stagnant & sick of running the same bosses over and over week after week. Raid finder already makes me tired of seeing the same encounters over and over again - progression in normal modes NEEDS to happen for average groups to stay interested.


That nerf schedule is way too aggressive. The general consensus was that they nerfed Dragon Soul too fast, and that was 4-5 weeks of 5% nerfs starting after, what, 7 weeks?

01/19/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Badilyn
3) Instate a graduated achievement system so the All Star teams can show off their un-nerfed kill achs with pride. Much like the challenge mode dungeons offer gold, silver and bronze for beating timers, this could work the same way - gold for participating in an un-buffed kill, etc, etc.


In Challenge mode, you can't go back with better gear the way you can in raids.

4) No nerfs to heroics unless they're not working as anticipated. Let the collection of gear & improved knowledge of fights be deciding factors as it's meant to be. If someone wants a heroic kill they either need to earn it or pay for it. Not everyone needs to clear heroic content as we were in ds.


Then absolutely nobody would go from Normal to Heroic once the nerfs started. Guilds that progress through Normal mode with your nerf schedule would be hit with brick walls reinforced by concrete when they tried to go to Heroic mode.
The point of real raiding is to overcome a challenge with friends. If you're looking for neither than I'm not even sure why you bother playing the game. Is doing solo content and putzing around in LFR, where the only talking that happens at all involves getting into angry arguments with random idiots and trolls really that appealing? And all so you can get gear that you have no real intent to make use of.
These people used to be laughed at, they're now the majority.
why would someone raid purely for loot in this day and age? not like the loot is useful in pvp anymore, with resilience AND pvp power both in. challenge modes scale your gear down, so that's not it. you certainly don't need it for heroic 5-mans or scenarios. maybe to make solo'ing old raids for rare mount drops easier? only thing i can come up with really.

if you don't simply enjoy killing bosses, then you shouldn't be raiding.
I didn't raid JUST for loot. I said as much on the first page - loot, however, IS a big piece of my motivational pie (along with the sense of accomplishment you get from killing bosses and to a much lesser extent the social interactions, in case you don't want to read back that far). The fact they've made the lfr gear I'm using better than the "real" raid pieces I had obtained through raiding was my main issue.

With respect to the nerf timeline, I appreciate the comments suggesting 4 weeks was too tight. I'm inclined to agree after reading the posts - like I said when I made the suggestion it was just a number to start a discussion. Does anyone out there really thing that the dividing line between their group and killing a new boss has been gear upgrades obtained through vp?

I want the best gear I can get because I like doing higher and higher dps in whatever activities I choose to participate in, be they scenarios, dungeons, lfr or real raiding. I like questing to be easy, and it's easy when you can absolutely smash the things you need to kill, loot them quick & move along. Anything to reduce the amount of time I'm spending to collect these vps I "need", to keep up on the Legendary quest line (a quest line I shouldn't even have access to without being involved in "real", non-lfr raiding as far as I'm concerned) is something I'm going to pursue.

I appreciate everyone advising me that I'm raiding for the wrong reasons, I totally see that you're right & realize that stopping raiding was the right decision for me at this time..... however, that wasn't really the spirit of my post. I had already decided to stop. My point was they're giving too much gear away through non-raid means to make raiding really necessary for me, based on my personal combination of motivating factors. I then offered some suggestions as to how things could change which would make me want to raid again.
When you make this statement, you're implying "would people raid without the gear?"... but you're missing that the gear is what adds a great deal of depth to a long race. For 25-man guilds, you're making decisions on which gear to go for, and who to put that gear on, that impact your ability to kill future bosses.

This adds a great deal of strategic depth to the race. Since Challenge Modes don't provide gear and aren't intended to replace raiding, they don't have this kind of depth. And that's fine - different content for different people.


Yep.

People play for gear. To say otherwise isn't accurate. That's pretty much my point. I admit I get a little irritated when people try to play it off as not playing for gear. I guarantee that there wouldn't be one tenth the raid attendance there is now if raids dropped no gear - if instead the challenge was to just beat it with pure skill.

The only people who could even come close to claiming they don't raid for gear are the people who are clearing heroics week 1. In reality, that's about nobody.

The rest of us need the gear because we don't have the skill to tackle the content without it. How much gear is needed, of course, varies just as much as the skill of the players themselves. All gear is is a means to nerf the content.

Sure, there are some mechanics you can't outgear, but let's be fair - the majority of content gets easier with gear. That's all there is to it. Gear just takes the hand off the dial for the short term while evening it out (via RNG) in the long term - by now, for example, most 25's who've been raiding since the beginning should have ppl with 4pc bonuses. Not all of them, but most of them. That nerfs content - helps you beat enrage timers, use less healers, make more mistakes. Conserve more mana. Regen more mana. Stuff like that.

And that's fine. As you said, different content for different people. Raiders just can't claim they don't play for gear. That's all.

Edit: I think this is the last I'll post on the topic, or forums at all. Met some great friends here, but I'm pretty sure I'm done with the forums. Take care all.
01/19/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Badilyn
I will admit fully, up front, that I am gear motivated


found your problem OP
Thank you for your help.
Yep.

People play for gear. To say otherwise isn't accurate. That's pretty much my point. I admit I get a little irritated when people try to play it off as not playing for gear. I guarantee that there wouldn't be one tenth the raid attendance there is now if raids dropped no gear - if instead the challenge was to just beat it with pure skill.

The only people who could even come close to claiming they don't raid for gear are the people who are clearing heroics week 1. In reality, that's about nobody.

The rest of us need the gear because we don't have the skill to tackle the content without it. How much gear is needed, of course, varies just as much as the skill of the players themselves. All gear is is a means to nerf the content.

Sure, there are some mechanics you can't outgear, but let's be fair - the majority of content gets easier with gear. That's all there is to it. Gear just takes the hand off the dial for the short term while evening it out (via RNG) in the long term - by now, for example, most 25's who've been raiding since the beginning should have ppl with 4pc bonuses. Not all of them, but most of them. That nerfs content - helps you beat enrage timers, use less healers, make more mistakes. Conserve more mana. Regen more mana. Stuff like that.

And that's fine. As you said, different content for different people. Raiders just can't claim they don't play for gear. That's all.

Edit: I think this is the last I'll post on the topic, or forums at all. Met some great friends here, but I'm pretty sure I'm done with the forums. Take care all.


Gear is our tool for killing bosses.
01/20/2013 05:12 PMPosted by Badilyn
The fact they've made the lfr gear I'm using better than the "real" raid pieces I had obtained through raiding was my main issue.


But they haven't actually done this. You're taking issue with something that doesn't exist.
I have managed to down a whopping 6 bosses this tier. From those bosses I have obtained almost everything I can possibly use. I have either banked, vendored or wouldn't consider using the following pieces in favor of non-raid loot, either due to set piece bonuses coming into play or because of the fact that a non-raid item is better for my toon:

Nullification Greathelm
Breastplate of the Kings' Guard
Bonded Soul Bracers
Soulgrasp Choker

I am currently using a grand total of 2 pcs (boots & cloak) from raid bosses.

Alluring gear is part of raiding, a bigger part for some than others (guilty). The allure of what's available to me (and that's key - my progress this tier was not good) at the regular level of raiding isn't significantly better enough for me to make the effort, and that's not the way it should be at least in my mind.
The zone you're doing in normal (MSV) is the entry zone, and is half a tier lower than the real tier gear. You're comparing 483s to 489s, and it's not surprising that some of the 483s can be better.

The 496+ stuff will destroy your 483s.
When you make this statement, you're implying "would people raid without the gear?"... but you're missing that the gear is what adds a great deal of depth to a long race. For 25-man guilds, you're making decisions on which gear to go for, and who to put that gear on, that impact your ability to kill future bosses.

This adds a great deal of strategic depth to the race. Since Challenge Modes don't provide gear and aren't intended to replace raiding, they don't have this kind of depth. And that's fine - different content for different people.


Yep.

People play for gear. To say otherwise isn't accurate. That's pretty much my point. I admit I get a little irritated when people try to play it off as not playing for gear. I guarantee that there wouldn't be one tenth the raid attendance there is now if raids dropped no gear - if instead the challenge was to just beat it with pure skill.

The only people who could even come close to claiming they don't raid for gear are the people who are clearing heroics week 1. In reality, that's about nobody.

The rest of us need the gear because we don't have the skill to tackle the content without it. How much gear is needed, of course, varies just as much as the skill of the players themselves. All gear is is a means to nerf the content.

Sure, there are some mechanics you can't outgear, but let's be fair - the majority of content gets easier with gear. That's all there is to it. Gear just takes the hand off the dial for the short term while evening it out (via RNG) in the long term - by now, for example, most 25's who've been raiding since the beginning should have ppl with 4pc bonuses. Not all of them, but most of them. That nerfs content - helps you beat enrage timers, use less healers, make more mistakes. Conserve more mana. Regen more mana. Stuff like that.

And that's fine. As you said, different content for different people. Raiders just can't claim they don't play for gear. That's all.

Edit: I think this is the last I'll post on the topic, or forums at all. Met some great friends here, but I'm pretty sure I'm done with the forums. Take care all.


Eh. You can remove the gear, but then you need to change the system more. Like I said, there would be zero incentive to kill bosses more than once. You might as well have them be once-per-guild. But that model would never be sustainable.

I can claim I don't play for gear just fine. The gear is the means to an end - it helps kill the bosses and provides a reason to kill them more than once. You can remove it, but then you have to provide a different reason.
There's nothing that feels epic about the idea of beating normal mode bosses - the story is in LFR and the challenge/loot is in heroic - so convincing people to try to progress on normal mode fights is often harder than actually killing the bosses.

I play in one of the more progressed guilds on my server (not saying much outside my server, but whatever), we're one of about 4 guilds that regularly manages to field a raid group multiple times a week for normal raiding. You'd think there'd be a lot of demand for open slots on days when a regular raider can't make it, but as it turns out, this is not the case. The general lack of alts in MoP, combined with the lack of enthusiasm caused by LFR, means it's often completely impossible to find a single player capable of even 40k dps on Stone Guard.

My point is, I've encountered the OP's point of view quite a bit. There needs to be something in normal raids that allows guilds to get people excited about running them. Right now there's nothing (except gear, and the gear in normal isn't even much of an upgrade a lot of the time, over LFR/valor), and that lack of excitement is the biggest impediment to progress normal mode raid groups are dealing with right now.

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