Rogues on the PTR are flat out broken

Arenas
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01/23/2013 05:41 PMPosted by Mordioz
It wasn't really fine, in my opinion.


You know what they say about opinions, and thats all I need to say. The opinions that have value have thoughts put into them. The only thing rogue lack on live is defensive power vs. melee. Everything else they have is moderate or strong. Do you know what they call that? It's called a weakness, and every class should have one.
I agree that cloak should not be on prep

Its a full on immunity for a long !@# time against casters/healers who cannot respond very well if at all.


Cloak is just a rotten design full stop, the fact it can be used during burst cooldowns may seem natural but it gives them the advantage of being extremely hard to peel if you're a caster. When you need to peel them most.

Why does this always happen? Why are Rogues (and other classes) always overshadowed by others at the start of expansions, then the ridiculous tools of other classes get nerfed and Rogues get buffed... then we end up with a disaster.

What were it I heard Originals say? "Rogues aren't bad, they're all about gear, the more gear you get the better they are".

I think the worst thing is people baselining around Season 11, when Rogues were insane on so many fronts. Oh well!
01/23/2013 06:48 PMPosted by Conspiracy
It wasn't really fine, in my opinion.


You know what they say about opinions, and thats all I need to say. The opinions that have value have thoughts put into them. The only thing rogue lack on live is defensive power vs. melee. Everything else they have is moderate or strong. Do you know what they call that? It's called a weakness, and every class should have one.


Everyone has opinions, whether they're correct or not is another thing.
Not one person is right about EVERYTHING.
And I know that our problem is mainly our defensive on live. I don't recall saying anything about our damage -needing- to be buffed.
You get quite offensive and sarcastic when we're merely having a discussion.
01/23/2013 06:57 PMPosted by Mordioz


You know what they say about opinions, and thats all I need to say. The opinions that have value have thoughts put into them. The only thing rogue lack on live is defensive power vs. melee. Everything else they have is moderate or strong. Do you know what they call that? It's called a weakness, and every class should have one.


Everyone has opinions, whether they're correct or not is another thing.
Not one person is right about EVERYTHING.
And I know that our problem is mainly our defensive on live. I don't recall saying anything about our damage -needing- to be buffed.
You get quite offensive and sarcastic when we're merely having a discussion.


I think he's just tired of idiots who don't understand the concept of a "tradeoff".
Sarcastic? Agreed. Offensive? Not yet, you're projecting that. Its an attitude that has developed after years of reading opinions with no facts behind them, enough arrogance to fill six of the seas, and ill tempered ignorant people.

I just believe sarcasm is an art and implement it into anything I do as long as I believe I'm not being incredibly inconsiderate, and that's more of an accepted personal fault. I never said your opinion was wrong, I said it had less value because it's not backed by facts. Opinions can't be wrong, and I avoid bias as much as possible, but it seeps in when I talk about Ferals, Demo Warlocks, or BM Hunters. This is not one of those cases, because I've played with high ranked rogues every season since debut, many of the people complaining about them were suffering a paradigm shift, poor viability in the current meta of early S12 (kill something in one second or less, the more immunity defenses you had, the better), and unscaled combat.
Sarcastic? Agreed. Offensive? Not yet, you're projecting that. Its an attitude that has developed after years of reading opinions with no facts behind them, enough arrogance to fill six of the seas, and ill tempered ignorant people.

I just believe sarcasm is an art and implement it into anything I do as long as I believe I'm not being incredibly inconsiderate, and that's more of an accepted personal fault. I never said your opinion was wrong, I said it had less value because it's not backed by facts. Opinions can't be wrong, and I avoid bias as much as possible, but it seeps in when I talk about Ferals, Demo Warlocks, or BM Hunters. This is not one of those cases, because I've played with high ranked rogues every season since debut, many of the people complaining about them were suffering a paradigm shift, poor viability in the current meta of early S12 (kill something in one second or less, the more immunity defenses you had, the better), and unscaled combat.


I understand exactly what you mean. Seeing people come in here and just complaining about stupid things all because they got beaten by the class and suddenly the whole class needs to be nerfed. While I don't have many facts, my opinions are fueled purely by personal experience which sadly isn't enough around here. I do agree sarcasm is an art but adding it to discussions can be a little misleading in a way when two people are just discussing without trying to insult each other.

And @Anurakis, I also see you in many threads with little constructive posting. Some of it is, but most of it is you just down-right insulting people because their views are different than yours and you don't really fairly give people the chance to further explain themselves before you go off on them. That's just a valuation done by a nobody like me that you'll probably have a rebuttal for, but I'm not trying to insult you, believe me.

I know what trade-offs are. Our damage is pretty strong on a pretty low cooldown. But the positional requirements hurt a lot. I know I'm going to get told to L2P and just keep them in a stun. And I know it's as easy as that, but you need to force their trinket in order to actually do it, which really isn't that hard. We definitively need what we're getting in 5.2 which is preparation baseline, one vanish isn't enough for the burst fest that is this season. CloS is now going to be able to be used offensively which can be countered by, say a warrior or a hunter, and I believe a monk.

Anyway, that was just something I decided to write out of pure-boredom. I look forward to hearing your side of the discussion so that I can see your opinion. =)

Edit: I actually just saw a Rogue get literally in arena by a feral druid+warrior when the warrior didn't even pop his cooldowns. Reckful's stream if it means anything.
You're kind enough to acknowledge it and politely bring it to my attention, so it's no issue of mine to withdraw the undertone. Personal experience does matter to an extent, but it's better when

a. it's relevant.

b. it can be linked to people who are considered relatable (aka streamers).

c. others agree with your statement (well known PvPers hold more ground in this section as well)

I would be lying if I said your opinion wasn't accept by the majority, but I believe that's herd mentality moreso than anything. That being said, I played with a rogue at the start of the season as a healer (if thats what you could call 5.0 disc), and currently one as a DPS. Their offensive capability is currently already frightening, to the point that most healers are soloable. I've also seen a Warrior + Dps stun one without trinket and just watch them plummet with no counterplay to be seen.

Neither are excusable, but Blizzard's agenda for PvP is so small, that I have a choice of which to pursue. Instead of committing more of a problem to what I believe they're making rogues by bringing up their current defensive issues, I rather prevent them overbloating the offensive capability, even though I directly benefit.

Do you understand how much of an advantage a Disc Priest with skilled rogue friends has? Yet I find myself wanting many of the changes to both classes being reverted.
b. it can be linked to people who are considered relatable (aka streamers).

c. others agree with your statement (well known PvPers hold more ground in this section as well)


No. A solid argument operates on its merits alone, independent from any of these factors.

And @Anurakis, I also see you in many threads with little constructive posting. Some of it is, but most of it is you just down-right insulting people because their views are different than yours and you don't really fairly give people the chance to further explain themselves before you go off on them. That's just a valuation done by a nobody like me that you'll probably have a rebuttal for, but I'm not trying to insult you, believe me.


If I went out of my way to war and peace everything I'd be disregarding the fact half of what I respond to isn't even worthy of a well constructed rebuttal. Then again, I read everything and on most things I honestly don't even have an opinion because I've not given it sufficient thought to have a robust, well supported position (there are lots of things I don't post in because I simply am not knowledgeable nor understanding enough in regards to the topic in question). In other news, if you like to think what I post is tripe, you're always given the prerogative of not reading it!
b. it can be linked to people who are considered relatable (aka streamers).

c. others agree with your statement (well known PvPers hold more ground in this section as well)


No. A solid argument operates on its merits alone, independent from any of these factors.


Class power isn't measurable by facts. You can't use this rule when indepth class discussion is taking place, there is no direct merit in what is overpowered or not, it's all opinion.


No. A solid argument operates on its merits alone, independent from any of these factors.


Class power isn't measurable by facts. You can't use this rule when indepth class discussion is taking place, there is no direct merit in what is overpowered or not, it's all opinion.


Well qualitative measurement doesn't have to be decoupled from facts. I'm not sure I'm grasping your logic here.
Give me a fact on why Disc Priests are currently underpowered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0jNT5cMwxw0#!

That's rogues next season for you LOLOLOL
01/23/2013 08:19 PMPosted by Conspiracy
Give me a fact on why Disc Priests are currently underpowered.


Ooooh, now this is tricky territory indeed!

At what point does a theory become fact? Well, I have theories as to why disc priests are underpowered (that I can justify with reasoning, comparison and the like) and I have arguments that support my theory (lack of mana efficiency, lack of throughput, vulnerability etc) but you are right, it can never be a "fact" insomuch as it can be accepted as the most rational explanation.

TIMES LIKE THESE I WISH I'D TAKEN THOSE PHILOSOPHY UNITS AND NOT SAT IN THE COMMON ROOM HIGH
Theories on game design are always opinion, never fact. Which is why the territory is so difficult to discuss. It's all argumentation unless you're a designer, your word is law. Which is bad if your designer is impulsive, but also bad if they're too indecisive. You have to hold a good mix while listening to multiple vocal points (majority players, high rated players, and other designers), all while maintaining an unbiased opinion as possible.

I honestly hope to delve in game design when I grow old of my current occupation. It's a lot of philosophy that's ever expanding.
This still doesn't change one thing;

A good argument is a good argument regardless, it will present a premise, a set of solid reasoning to support said premise (with as much relevant evidence as possible) and follow a logical progression supporting the initial statement.

For example (theoretical example, god please don't say I'm bashing warriors my head will fall off)

Warriors are overpowered (statement)

Brings up the question

Why are warriors overpowered?

They can wreck my entire health bar in three seconds

Why does this make them overpowered?

No other class is able to do this, it is hard to prevent


How is this relevant to the situation?

In comparison to other damage dealing specs (provide evidence) they do vastly more damage in a given period of time (state the parameters)

I know what you mean when you make an argument about facts, nothing can truly be a fact in a synthetic system until it is implicitly stated by the creator of that system. In a natural system facts are apparently, objects fall to earth, that's a fact - the theory of gravity explains why they fall to earth.

I feel retarded :(

Edit: I should really read this, lol;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation_theory
No I agree good argumentation cannot be worthless, but there has to be a source for such exemplary argumentation to be considered valid. Joe Blow 1500 saying that Boomkins do way too much damage in arena, along with personal experiences don't have as value as Reckful saying it with the same amount of personal experiences. Reckful holds more value because the majority of people will agree with him more, due to his personal accomplishments.

Is it entirely right? No, but people don't believe in genius theorycrafters who are stuck at 1500. People are more likely to flock to Reckful because he already will have a large people agreeing with him not matter what he says. It's a mix of herd mentality, and a little elitism of denying that 1500 player his right to a valuable opinion.

TL:DR - Psychological traits of society allow more popular people to have more credit due to larger initial supporters who couldn't care what the person is saying. Personal opinion on the morality, or logic within the factor is irrelevant due to the fact it's something you can't change without starting it yourself, and creating a new tradition slowly. Which ironically would require you to have initial supporters in many areas (considering that this isn't strictly to arena philosophy, herd mentality exists everywhere).
Hi Rogue here. I'm skeptical about rogue QQ, PTR is PTR, but I am worried.

I don't want to be overpowered.

Rogues should not want to be overpowered.

We don't need Blizzard overreacting to my class and changing things that shouldn't be changed in an attempt to bring balance.
As for the link, yeah, it's stupid. But there's no being here to say who's right and who's wrong. It's based on how many people think you're right, or how many people think you're wrong. Popularity ends up lending too much power in these situations.

edit: A perfect example is my thinking of Rets. It's really difficult to convince Ret's of my opinion that they're fine when Vanguards says they're not. Vanguards holds much more experience of the class than I probably ever will, and the idea that I would have a better idea on Ret's viability moreso than him is just impossible to grasp for some people (even though he said they were bad right after the first healing nerf, and spouts stupid stuff on a near weekly basis, he'll always hold that experience and fan-base).

It's also hard for many people to believe both of our thoughts are opinions.
Well now the thing is that we both agree with each other.

So... yeah.

lol

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