Rogues on the PTR are flat out broken

Arenas
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01/24/2013 11:25 AMPosted by Coontlipsx
okay what's your point?


I did explain what makes sub overtuned on PTR.

01/24/2013 11:17 AMPosted by Roguefail
On PTR several factors combined, (ST, extra energy, para poison, and subterfuge being viable due to the etra energy) make sub rogue burst a bit much. the issue here is that blizz tweaked the wrong things.


As far as the other 2 specs go, mut isn't that bad, just slow, however combat... its just been entirely gutted that outside of wonky CDs its just an auto attack bot.
I miss 2.4.3 Combat Daggers :(
01/24/2013 07:42 AMPosted by Razamis
All I see is QQ

Do you know the difference between QQ and legitimate feedback on a forum made for feedback? It looks to me as if you do not.

The consensus is that your class is horrendously overpowered and these changes need to mostly be reverted before this goes live.


That is the consensus for our class in general at almost all times. Any buff they gave us would have been viewed with suspicion. I truly doubt that most of the people posting here have even played on ptr. It's the usual pile on effect that any thread for nerfs not directed at your own class causes.
I wish they would:

1) take back the extra energy. (leave shadow focus alone)

2) leave ST as is. (do not buff it)

3) prep baseline

4) feint usable at all times even when under cc

5) lower cd of Shadowstep to 20secs and let it clear roots.

This would help what we needed. More mobility, more survivability when we need it most (cc/stuns).

If they dont up the mobility then yeah I'll take a change to ST.


That is the consensus for our class in general at almost all times. Any buff they gave us would have been viewed with suspicion. I truly doubt that most of the people posting here have even played on ptr. It's the usual pile on effect that any thread for nerfs not directed at your own class causes.


Not entirely true. I found rogues to be obnoxious, but manageable through 1.x->3.x on my Warrior, and only really had major anal pains when I was doing matches on my Mage when Cloak of Skill was released along with Cheat Death. Mostly due to the whole brilliant plan of giving Rogues an easy out for PvP'ing in PvE gear and just relying on Cheat Death to save their bacon until they nerfed it to require resilience to even do anything.

I quit at the start of Crapaclysm after hitting 85 and seeing how stupid everything was, then came back around MoP launch to see fangs in PvP and nearly flipped my table.

Now they're even more out of control because they don't need fangs to do stuff like that again.

1) take back the extra energy. (leave shadow focus alone)

2) leave ST as is. (do not buff it)

3) prep baseline

4) feint usable at all times even when under cc

5) lower cd of Shadowstep to 20secs and let it clear roots.


Feint should not be usable under cc. How are you faking an attack while stunned or polymorphed or frozen in a block of ice? Doesn't make sense.

Step clearing roots I'm iffy about just because you have Burst of Speed to clear those kinds of things, even if it's getting reworked. Step is infinitely better than BoS if it clears roots.

I mean, you're getting double Vanish and that clears roots. Additionally you get Cloak and Dagger to function as Step anyway, and with double Vanish and Dance I don't see why you wouldn't take it.
01/23/2013 04:05 PMPosted by Winterr
We're pretty much the worst pvp class on live

I know you said class, but technically lolret and enh are the very worst dps specs. At least lolret and enh can spec into top shelf heal specs, I'll grant you.

Out of curiosity, what do rogues get from symbiosis? Because lolret gets wrath!


Feint should not be usable under cc. How are you faking an attack while stunned or polymorphed or frozen in a block of ice? Doesn't make sense.

Step clearing roots I'm iffy about just because you have Burst of Speed to clear those kinds of things, even if it's getting reworked. Step is infinitely better than BoS if it clears roots.

I mean, you're getting double Vanish and that clears roots. Additionally you get Cloak and Dagger to function as Step anyway, and with double Vanish and Dance I don't see why you wouldn't take it.


Yet you can heal yourself while under CC and doing nothing yourself. It's hard to argue when we play logic by magic. Practicality overrides "sense" every time.


Yet you can heal yourself while under CC and doing nothing yourself. It's hard to argue when we play logic by magic. Practicality overrides "sense" every time.


Actually it's passive and we can't turn it on or off at will. On top of that it only functions one spell/crit from Execute range and more or less signals our demise.

If they gave us old Second Wind at 3%/tick rather than 2% you'd see a bunch less qq because it's not about being unable to kill a warrior <35%, it's about how warriors are AWESOME at surviving pressure and take forever to wear down, making us good flag carriers and sturdy arena partners who can deal with being focused for a few fleeting seconds while our healer is getting CC'd.
my point is that using "doesn't make sense" is just a weak form of refutation. They could make feint passively go off when we are under cc effects and then your argument is void. You might say it's not needed or whatever.. then we can have a good arguement. Arguing what "makes sense" is pointless in a video game.

And yes we definately need some form of dmg reduction when under cc/stuns. That's why we are so freaking easy to tunnel.

Now this is in conjunction with my other post. If they want to just leave ST as is and the other changes then I'm ok with that too. The ability to attack from range gives us partial increased survivability in that I dont always have to go toe to toe with classes that can wreck me.
my point is that using "doesn't make sense" is just a weak form of refutation. They could make feint passively go off when we are under cc effects and then your argument is void. You might say it's not needed or whatever.. then we can have a good arguement. Arguing what "makes sense" is pointless in a video game.

And yes we definately need some form of dmg reduction when under cc/stuns. That's why we are so freaking easy to tunnel.

Now this is in conjunction with my other post. If they want to just leave ST as is and the other changes then I'm ok with that too. The ability to attack from range gives us partial increased survivability in that I dont always have to go toe to toe with classes that can wreck me.


Let me rephrase, then. Rogues are a reactive and proactive class, first and foremost. Passives are disgusting on Rogues because they're not supposed to have things that work by themselves. They always push a button for it.

This is not bad class design, especially since all of your buttons do something rather hefty.

Warrior passives, for example, are most of our burst/sustained damage. It sucks. We're tied to procs like its a ball and chain and the only thing that is a definite thing is Second Wind at 35%. We're also handicapped by Rage being practically non-existent in Defensive Stance, which is a requirement to sit in 24/7 due to being caught in Battle or Berserker Stance leading to a rather serious case of dead.
Well one of the main problems was how easy we are to be tunneled. Why our arena representation was in the toilet. (not entirely but a factor) Why in the global tourney the call to switch to the rogue was the right call every time.

I'd rather they address it directly with our survivability and mobility.. but it seems the ST addresses both of those problems albeit in a strange (to rogues) way. Combined with prep being baseline we are in a much better spot then we are without it.
Rogues really shouldn't be spamming ranged attacks to kite, though. It doesn't 'feel' right, know what I mean? It's like how Paladins are able to kite like hunters. It's like... Cheating, almost.

Very roguish, yes, but not in the right sense.
Well one of the main problems was how easy we are to be tunneled. Why our arena representation was in the toilet. (not entirely but a factor) Why in the global tourney the call to switch to the rogue was the right call every time.

I'd rather they address it directly with our survivability and mobility.. but it seems the ST addresses both of those problems albeit in a strange (to rogues) way. Combined with prep being baseline we are in a much better spot then we are without it.


Last time I checked rogue tools are kinda conducive to being an opener dependent class. As per usual.
so much cc that I guess that role needed modifying. It wasnt by accident why our arena representation is so low.
I wish they would:

1) take back the extra energy. (leave shadow focus alone)

2) leave ST as is. (do not buff it)

3) prep baseline

4) feint usable at all times even when under cc

5) lower cd of Shadowstep to 20secs and let it clear roots.

This would help what we needed. More mobility, more survivability when we need it most (cc/stuns).

If they dont up the mobility then yeah I'll take a change to ST.


I would be fine with everything except 5.

01/24/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Hairyhoudini
so much cc that I guess that role needed modifying. It wasnt by accident why our arena representation is so low.


Nope, but I hope it was an accident that you mentioned representation having any value without having a single variable mentioned.

Did I mention rogues have a lower population than Rets as a spec?
01/24/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Romavictor
We're pretty much the worst pvp class on live

I know you said class, but technically lolret and enh are the very worst dps specs. At least lolret and enh can spec into top shelf heal specs, I'll grant you.

Out of curiosity, what do rogues get from symbiosis? Because lolret gets wrath!


Enhance is not bad.

Rogue gets Growl.
01/24/2013 02:02 PMPosted by Crookston

I know you said class, but technically lolret and enh are the very worst dps specs. At least lolret and enh can spec into top shelf heal specs, I'll grant you.

Out of curiosity, what do rogues get from symbiosis? Because lolret gets wrath!


Enhance is not bad.

Rogue gets Growl.


its not bad but its not great or even optimal, rogues's growl is also akin to another shield wall.
01/24/2013 01:56 PMPosted by Conspiracy
I would be fine with everything except 5.


Why? Blink breaks you out of everything every 15 seconds. Disengage can apply a root with a talent.

Even demonic circle removes snares and roots.
First off, 9/10 of the complaints here, are things that rogues could do already, the fact that it annoys you, or you dont like it, is more so indicated by the rogues ability to be more successful at it/afterwards, in that after the stun he could actually kill you.

ST was fine how it was before. I loved the fact that I could build CP and keep poisons ticking from range.

I havent personally tested any of the new talents, but our mobility and uptime is pretty crap. I wouldve much rather had the new talents fix that problem, than ST being buffed to give rogues some weird ranged uptime ability.

Theres ALOT of bias in this thread. Like I said, 9/10 posts look like they just want to keep rogues where they are now, which is not a threat.

I agree that nerfing warriors is like nerfing a natural predator. I agree that these buffs were the WRONG buffs.

I disagree in the majority of the posts basically wanting these abilities nerfed/reverted, and no compensation given where its needed.

  • And on a final note, in my opinion, this thread is pretty useless. Im sorry to say, but if Blizzard couldnt catch how bad rogues were in beta with how much feedback they got, i doubt another QQ thread on the ARENA forums is going to do anything.


  • EDIT: TL;DR Blizzard is known for overkill/overbuffing. They fixed PVE items in pvp, nerfed rogues, AND buffed warriors in ONE move with MoP coming out. That put rogues pretty low on the food chain. So of couse, to fix what theyve done, their going to give rogues their s11 scepter back. Sorry, and here's where the bias comes in. Like rogues had to deal with s12 and warriors, you're just going to have to deal with s13 and rogues. Maybe the season after that the cycle continues and rogues will be crap.


    Enhance is not bad.

    Rogue gets Growl.


    its not bad but its not great or even optimal, rogues's growl is also akin to another shield wall.


    I didn't say enhance was great. Dude called it one of the very worst dps specs and he's wrong.

    Growl is okay. There's no pure damage mitigation, just armor and stamina increase. It's nothing to complain about, but it sure pales in comparison to stampeding shout or dash imo. Think it would have made more sense to give rogue a big bleed.

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