Tier 15-Massive ilvl Discrepancy

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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01/25/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We’re confident that our planned item levels are not going to skew class balance or degenerate gameplay,
It has already degenerated gameplay. You know all those dailies people feel "forced" to do no matter how many times you try to convince them they aren't required to move forward? The power increase is far too massive to be considered optional by anyone who doesn't want to be a hindrance to the group they raid with, regardless of what level your group is playing at.

Gear also feels absolutely terrible right now in PvP, and the incoming changes will not fix it. The power disparity between entry level and top level gear is absolutely absurd.

I understand your approach providing huge power increases with every single item and the benefit it brings, allowing groups to progress steadily through available PvE raid content, but it has some significant downsides you're ignoring.

http://windlashed.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/our-item-level-overlord/


You're actively inflating item level, while there's also a Blue posts saying that inflation is out of control, the contradiction is rather annoying, as the smoke and mirrors are getting old, just flat out say you want heroic raiders carrying LFR the first month.


This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT. Its not compelling gameplay for us, if LFR was truely meant as an ALTERNATIVE to raiding as you guys sell it, raiders have NO business in it.


Don't do it then you idiot, do normals or post on your main so people can see just how "competitive" your guild actually is
01/25/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Bobmistina
Don't do it then you idiot, do normals
Social pressure means you do both if both provide upgrades.
I really hope the current ilvl that these items are posted on the PTR are only for testing. Heroic T12 was an item level of 391 with a few 397 items while T13 LFR was 384-390. Sure there's the current item upgrades but this doesn't nearly close the gap between t14 and t15 due to the hard cap of 3000 valor (used to be 4k) and the weekly cap of 1k with the price of upgrading being 750.

If anything I was expecting LFR ToT to be around 490-495 max and definitely not 500+.


Normal T12: 378
LFR T13: 384
Heroic T12: 391

Normal T14: 496
LFR T15: 502
Heroic T14: 509

Seems consistent with T13 LFR... Why all acted suprised?
01/25/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Bobmistina
Don't do it then you idiot, do normals or post on your main so people can see just how "competitive" your guild actually is


We're already back to the "just don't wear pants" arguments.

Content isn't optional when not doing it would result in large losses of progression.

Nobody is passing up getting gear to fill gaps in a serious raid environment, when you do past LFR, you can offer more constructiveness, but hiding on an alt that isn't even actually hidden doesn't make your point valid.

Ps. On top of other ways http://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/stormscale/Bobmistina Shows your main and relevant alts.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/area-52/Manipulate/advanced Mr. LFR Hero (in b4 he denies it even though every single achievement is exactly the same date, which would be a 1 in 14 quadrillion chance)
01/25/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Entitlement
Normal raiders now, would have normal Throne gear, not lfr, I don't see why you're comparing Normal Ilevel -> LFR Ilevel.


If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.

01/25/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Zergallyeah
This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT.


It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.
Share loot lockout between lfr/norm/heroic.

It's time.
01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder?
Set bonuses and potentially trinkets since they aren't always linear, and if our luck continues with fist weapons from Grand Empress (6 kills so far, 15 total coins spent by myself and guildies, zero total fist weapons) I very well may be in there for a weapon upgrade.

Frankly, your expectation is a little off.
"Vageta, what does the scouter say about his iLevel?"
01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.


In the example you linked, if LFR loot was normal Heart of Fear level, then you would want the LFR loot specifically if you were primarily an LFR level character, or for normal mode raiders who wanted superior bonuses or a jump on their tier bonuses, with the system now, you will be seeing heroic raiders looking through upgrades (supplemental in the least).

From the goals layed out at the beginning of MoP, which was what I bought the expansion for, one of the clear goals was that heroic raiders wouldn't feel compelled to run LFR past the first tier (for obvious reasons).

We as players understand that item level is simply a budgetting tool, and that purely increasing item level doesn't always equal a power gain (or that power gains are always equal across characters). I'm also assuming that doing LFR for the legendary quests is going to be a requirement (Yes, requirement, let's not pretend that passing up legendary acquisition is an "option"). Basically, LFR is becoming a pure job in one of the truest senses, from something that when it was first being conceived, was going to be a scenic tour.

The main thing that I, and many other players dreaded from LFR was that it was going to be affecting balance everywhere, and we were told it wouldn't, again we accept it's inevitable from the first tier of an expansion, but we're now seeing a huge shift in the balancing of the game to accomodate LFR mode, and we just saw another promise for this expansion's goals squashed, Tier 14 becomes completely worthless, for LFR raiders? it's 30 levels behind, for normal raiders? LFR Tier 15 offers flat out better loot, for heroic raiders? Upgrade systems gone, and the item level difference is insane, not even bringing in Thunderforged items.

It's 1 thing to want power gain from point A to B, but we're seeing power crushes, and it's looking poorly, stat budgetting affects classes, no 2 specs utilize 2ndary stats the same, and that creep of soft and hard caps is something that does affect class balancing.

You can make the gear curve a balanced line, rather than a plateau at every tier, gear resets suck and they were something that scarred Cataclysm, which from a high normal to heroic raid level was quite a failure past tier 11 (please don't say that 35% zerging heroic morchok made that demographic count in the heroic raider statistic). There's a happy medium possible between completely abandoning previous tiers to Transmog runs, and requiring players to clear 3 tiers at once like Vanilla.

One of the biggest causes of grief that I've noticed and experienced this expansion, and in Dragonsoul, has been the forced culture smash of LFR heroes, normal raiders and heroic raiders. You get this super volatile community experience where nobody comes out happy. Heroic Raiding is it's own experience and requires a completely different mind set to what the LFR hero community has, and it wouldn't be such a big point if A) No nerfs happen because of that [Good job so far], and B) You don't force those 2 playstyles to co-exist.
01/25/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Normal raiders now, would have normal Throne gear, not lfr, I don't see why you're comparing Normal Ilevel -> LFR Ilevel.


If I'm not missing something, I don't think he was. He's comparing 5.0/5.1 normal mode gear to 5.2 normal mode gear.

This, really can't believe Blizz still force raiders into LFR to stay competitive, WE DON'T LIKE IT.


It's our expectation that Heroic raiders should have no interest in 5.2 Raid Finder gear. If you have item level 509+ gear from 5.0/5.1 Heroics, then the question is, why would you want item level 502 gear from the Raid Finder? Players wearing normal mode gear might find some slight upgrades in the Raid Finder in the first few weeks, but it's a safe bet that any gear that was upgraded with Valor Points will probably beat anything found in the Throne of Thunder Raid Finder.


I don't think it's entirely inappropriate to think that the Ilevel gaps should be much smaller.

Personally I thought tier 15 would work out like this:

LFR: 496
Normal: 509
Heroic: 522

I know this isn't huge and exciting, but it's in line with Ulduar's increases. Using that example, many raiders consider it one of the greatest raids made, and guess what, gear Ilevel was not why.

Please take note of this, as this is coming from Mr. X-raider turned casual content guy. LFR shouldn't be even close to heroic mode gear from the previous tier.

Also, I'm guessing by current events that the dev team just doesn't care anymore about mudflation and the flat out dumb numbers everyone is able to kick out now, like they did a few months back?
The thing is that, it doesn't matter what ilvl LFR drops, as long as it drops legendary quest token (I can almost assure that it will) people will be "forced" to run it in the first few weeks... So I don't really see how these discussions even be relevant...
I for one love the massive ilevel difference, its going to make gearing up more exciting at the beginning of new tiers unlike cata for anyone who has a decent set of heroic items from the previous tiers.. plus, even if we grow to be completely op with high crit and everything, im sure blizzard can bring amazing bosses to match our massive ilevel in the last tier.

To be honest, i look forward to be completely overpowered by the last tier in full heroic, thunderforge, 2/2 upgraded bis gear : P
The thing is that, it doesn't matter what ilvl LFR drops, as long as it drops legendary quest token (I can almost assure that it will) people will be "forced" to run it in the first few weeks... So I don't really see how these discussions even be relevant...


It's also one of the easier ways to cap out VP for the week -- plus, it's fun!

I don't see what's wrong with incentivizing LFR for even heroic raiders with VP/legendary tokens. You still get them in normal/heroic raids, you'll just get them quicker if you do LFR too. And in a sincerely non-elitist way, could you imagine what LFR would be like if anyone in a raiding guild had no reason to do it anymore? Have you seen the Sha groups on your realm? That's one raid boss I haven't touched in many weeks. Part of the reason Garalon LFR was so troubling at the beginning was because raiding guilds were still running in-house LFR runs, not in the general pool of people.
01/25/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Moìra
I don't see what's wrong with incentivizing LFR for even heroic raiders with VP/legendary tokens. You still get them in normal/heroic raids, you'll just get them quicker if you do LFR too. And in a sincerely non-elitist way, could you imagine what LFR would be like if anyone in a raiding guild had no reason to do it anymore? Have you seen the Sha groups on your realm? That's one raid boss I haven't touched in many weeks. Part of the reason Garalon LFR was so troubling at the beginning was because raiding guilds were still running in-house LFR runs, not in the general pool of people.


They could balance the encounters around the demographic, rather than balancing them around forced carries.

In the end, most people want challenge and reward equal to their level of play, the bare minimum required for LFR is extremely low compared to what you expect (2 heroic level dps can meet Sha of Fear's Enrage in LFR, if you were able to just tunnel), you remove the combustible elements of normal and heroic raiders getting impatient when people cause stupid wipes, and you can have a much better community, since the people in lfr would want to be there.

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