Will our sustain damage ever be buffed? (PVE)

Paladin
Well technically any 'buffing' of our damage would increase our burst, censure is the least likely obvious buff to burst as opposed to buffing weapon damage or a direct damage spell coefficient.
Exactly. Unless our burst is nerfed to compensate the damage buff; Blizz has said they don't want to touch our burst, though - and I doubt many players would react well to it, either.
01/28/2013 01:03 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Exactly. Unless our burst is nerfed to compensate the damage buff; Blizz has said they don't want to touch our burst, though - and I doubt many players would react well to it, either.


You're dealing with Absolutes too much Grog. Buffing censure wont perpetuate their "We dont want to buff Ret Burst" line of thought if they were to buff us.

Censure is a dot, dots have never been considered part of a "Burst" component of anything.
Burst is just damage delivered in a short timeframe. DoT is a component of that - but by nature, it is a small component, since only one or two ticks of a DoT will occur in most timeframes that would be referred to as burst.

Buffing Censure most definitely is a burst buff, but it would be a small one, probably smaller than any other possible change. It's technically a burst buff, but "we don't want to buff Ret burst" doesn't strictly require exactly 0.000% change. So at worst, it would require less counterbalancing than most other possibilities, and at best wouldn't even be enough of a burst change to register on the scale.
You're dealing with Absolutes too much Grog. Buffing censure wont perpetuate their "We dont want to buff Ret Burst" line of thought if they were to buff us.


Maybe, maybe not; you've been around longer than I, so I'm sure you know better about how easily they can "tune" something of ours and completely break something else that's seemingly unrelated. Our pre-4.0.6 mastery, and the delay in the HoPo it was supposed to generate - a bug that remained even into 2pT13. The "bug" of Truth procing various things as if it were a melee attaack. Hell, they're already admitting to having done it to Prot in that they didn't mean to make actual tanking stats undesirable to Pally tanks.

Really, my point is that no matter how obvious or seemingly simple a thing is, you get Blizz involved and it's gonna spiral out of control and take more with it down the tubes than you might think.
I think the general idea is that ret overall needs a damage buff. Because a blanket buff to any of our abilities would mean more damage during burst, we should nerf our burst while buffing some other aspect of our damage, which would compensate for the nerf to our burst, keeping it at the same level it is now, and raising our sustained/overall damage.

Now, I don't think ret needs any sort of damage buff at the level I play, but that could be very different at higher gear levels.

On a side note, inquisition and the rest of the ret gameplay is fine. We don't need a mechanical change at all.
01/27/2013 06:50 PMPosted by Arte
We might need a little change, maybe something little like what you just suggested about Inquisition, taking it off GCD and making it cost mana instead of HP would be freaking great.


That would be the exact same thing as removing it entirely. Inq is not a bad design. It adds to the complexity of the priority and requires us to ramp up before burst. It was implemented for a reason and it is still fulfilling that purpose.

I don't have any experience at the OPs level of play, but the logs are showing him quite low on the meters, which i'm quite surprised by. I'm also not familiar with the heroic mechanics of the fights he has recently logged, so I can't make an accurate guess as to why his damage is so much lower than the rest of his raid.

Perhaps ret does need a buff to scaling so that we aren't so weak at higher gear levels, but at the average level of play we are still strong if played right.

Jval raises good points; I wish I had the answers.

Perhaps a more experienced ret does.


I'm about where I should be on the meters considering every dps in my guild actually parses where they should be and quite frankly so do I. The disparity becomes obvious in guilds where your others dps aren't complete crap and doing there job and you are to, especially if you look at logs and are at where other rets are in top guilds with similar gear. It depends on fit mechanics as well and whether or not you have a herioc sha wpn but overall I'm ranking in the 50-95 percentile depending n the fight and what happens. Since I am almost full bis I have noticed my dps rise higher and higher but without a herioc sha wpn we are still decent at best.
Sustained Damage can be and should be buffed
Guardian 4set and other gimmicky dps gains should be removed to compensate for the buff sustained damage would receive
I see a few rets claiming they are top dps/damage in raid
In these cases please disclose if you are using unintended 'Finds'to increase your dps/damage
Such as:
4set guardian, on use strength trinkets activated pre-pull sync'd pre-pot and Guardian, switching talents after activation pre-pull, etc...
Lust/heroism sync'd with alot of these pre-pull 'Finds' can and do severely inflate our damage/dps and paints an inaccurate picture of where rets dps actually is
Exorcism, Judgment, Crusader Strike, Inquisition, Wings/Guardian and pot if we get a bloodlust, follow my priority, win at dps. If the fight is shorter than 5 minutes, save your GoAK for lust, and hopefully wings will be back up for lust too. Don't pot unless you get a lust as well, or if you arent going to get a lust. I have no problems with my dps, and as armory very clearly shows, my ilvl isn't the highest. Depending on the fight, i end fights around 80k, and as you can clearly see, I still lack my 4 set.

Ret isn't as easy as most people like to think it is. I work a lot harder for my dps than a mage does, and they have always been on the top. While I'm content with my dps, I would like to be greedy and ask for more, especially since I have to press way more than 2 buttons.

Edit: No, I do not prepot. I'm way to !@#$%^- cheap for that.
01/29/2013 09:09 AMPosted by Hikoro
Ret isn't as easy as most people like to think it is. I work a lot harder for my dps than a mage does, and they have always been on the top. While I'm content with my dps, I would like to be greedy and ask for more, especially since I have to press way more than 2 buttons.


You can maintain 90% of your dps with 2 keys during AvWrath cd
I see a few rets claiming they are top dps/damage in raid
In these cases please disclose if you are using unintended 'Finds'to increase your dps/damage
Such as:
4set guardian, on use strength trinkets activated pre-pull sync'd pre-pot and Guardian, switching talents after activation pre-pull, etc...
Lust/heroism sync'd with alot of these pre-pull 'Finds' can and do severely inflate our damage/dps and paints an inaccurate picture of where rets dps actually is


None of that made any sense.

First of all, when you say Guardian 4 set, do you mean the tier 14 4-set bonus that affects our Avenging Wrath cooldown?

Second, all of those things you listed are what raiders do to push their damage to their absolute maximum. Pre-protting, proper trinket usage, as well as having the foresight of when to use cooldowns (or delay them for a burst phase or to sync them with cooldowns like Blood Lust) are all part of the skill of playing DPS - other classes do the same thing. If you aren't, that's fine, just don't say players who do are merely "inflating their DPS;" when in fact that's supposed to be what you're doing, squeezing out that last bit of DPS to down bosses, especially with short enrage timers.
01/29/2013 09:28 AMPosted by Meganfoxadin
Ret isn't as easy as most people like to think it is. I work a lot harder for my dps than a mage does, and they have always been on the top. While I'm content with my dps, I would like to be greedy and ask for more, especially since I have to press way more than 2 buttons.


You can maintain 90% of your dps with 2 keys during AvWrath cd

Idk wtf you're doing then. I use all of mine..

Maybe this is why some rets dps is so much better than others.
01/29/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Hikoro


You can maintain 90% of your dps with 2 keys during AvWrath cd

Idk wtf you're doing then. I use all of mine..

Maybe this is why some rets dps is so much better than others.


She probably means when you use Avenging Wrath/Holy Avenger together, which is mostly true, though it's more about using which holy power generator's stronger then finishing with Templar's Verdict, rinse repeat.

But you're right that Ret requires a bit of a bigger skill handicap - the skill of Ret isn't just in proper ability rotation, it's about proper management and juggling of cooldowns as well, which is what our sustained damage is based upon. If you're not using or juggling CDs right, your DPS will suffer, hard.
01/29/2013 09:30 AMPosted by Jackishi
First of all, when you say Guardian 4 set, do you mean the tier 14 4-set bonus that affects our Avenging Wrath cooldown?


I think that's referring to a Protection set bonus from Cata that extended the duration of GoAK, abused by some Rets to pad their damage. And that is a tad excessive, lugging around four pieces of old gear to extend GoAK on pre-pull. In the few reg fights I've done so far, I've been at or near the top and never resorted to such cheesy gimmicks; on progression fights, I'll pre-pot if there's a tank that knows how to do a proper count, but I don't gear-swap.
my only reason problem with ret right now is our lack of buffs we bring we are the only melee not that suffers with this every buff we bring a tank or healer can bring it.

NO other melee suffers like this.

They really need to give us attack power or speed buff to bring to the raid

Wouldn't mind a 5% increase on our abilitys either CS/Judge/Exo/ES all that jaz maybe even a 10% increase on censures damage
my only reason problem with ret right now is our lack of buffs we bring we are the only melee not that suffers with this every buff we bring a tank or healer can bring it.

NO other melee suffers like this.


Enhancement Shaman say, "hi."
my only reason problem with ret right now is our lack of buffs we bring we are the only melee not that suffers with this every buff we bring a tank or healer can bring it.

NO other melee suffers like this.

They really need to give us attack power or speed buff to bring to the raid

Wouldn't mind a 5% increase on our abilitys either CS/Judge/Exo/ES all that jaz maybe even a 10% increase on censures damage


... Um. No. You're exaggerating, all classes deal with shared buffs.

Warriors have to share their Shout with DKs, and Rogues, DK, Enh Shaman, and Hunters have the same 10% attack speed.

Paladins actually have fewer specs than most to share their buffs with.

Kings can be given by Monks and Druids, and hunters with the right pet
Might can only be given by Shaman or hunters with the right pet
i guess i didn't convey myself clearly

RET has this problem

10m raid comps don't take rets because they bring nothing that the healers/tanks don't already bring.

Past few days ive been apping to a bunch of guilds to pretty much copy and paste the response ive gotten from everyone single one is.

(Great app knows very detailed looks like you know your stuff but rets bring nothing to our raid that our tanks and healers don't already do, sorry if you would consider going holy)

10 man unfortunetly is very biased and needs certain comps.
25 man doesn't really suffer from this issue due to the large number of players.

yeah <.<
01/29/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Alaric
10m raid comps don't take rets because they bring nothing that the healers/tanks don't already bring.


Again, exaggerating; just because you're having some issues with guilds doesn't mean there's a problem with the spec. Former raid leader had been begging me to come back since begging of MoP. Since rejoining, I don't think I've buffed once - and no one has asked me to; all they expect is for me to blow stuff up, and I do that quite well.
That sounds more like those guilds' bias against Ret than anything else, considering other melee DO have to share buffs with other classes, including tanks and healers (and like Grog said, Enhance shaman fall under this, as well as that bias that Enh/Ret underperform in raids).

Ret does bring great utility though. Devotion Aura and Hand spells are lifesavers when used right, but many raid leaders don't often anticipate their usage, or are too focused on the 'perfect comp' when individual skill and gearing choices usually matters more (and that's something you can't simply convey on an application).

Honestly, seeing your gear AND your progression experience (except for that spirit PvP trinket...huh? o_O), I can't see a good reason why a guild shouldn't take you. Best of luck finding one, though!

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