So we are killing for War crimes?

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02/01/2013 12:15 PMPosted by Valius
Has nothing to do with Crush. I know what she did and I didn't like it either but demonizing her further then she already is stupid and unnecessary.


Yes she does, she almost destroyed the Horde and most of its civilians, then she ruined all chances the Alliance had at weakening the Horde and strengthening their numbers in Lordaeron.

If she stopped thinking about herself for a moment the Alliance would be much better off right now.
02/01/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Fylane
Either way, Weapons of Mass Destruction are not okay to use in War. I'm okay that he took out Theramore, it was a military target,


What the heck is this crap?

Theramore was a military target but Orgrimmar wasn't? What is with this bollocks double-standard coming from Horde fanboys?

Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city. If you claim that it was a valid military target then the same is true of Orgrimmar.
02/01/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Fylane
Has nothing to do with Crush. I know what she did and I didn't like it either but demonizing her further then she already is stupid and unnecessary.


Yes she does, she almost destroyed the Horde and most of its civilians, then she ruined all chances the Alliance had at weakening the Horde and strengthening their numbers in Lordaeron.


And she didn't do it. She doesn't need to be demonized in hind sight of what she did or almost did. Nobody liked it(Reasonable ones).
02/01/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Valius
And she didn't do it. She doesn't need to be demonized in hind sight of what she did or almost did. Nobody liked it(Reasonable ones).


Again, she didn't do it because other people had to talk her out of it. It wasn't from her own actions or thoughts that stopped her. It was Thrall's and Kalec's. If they hadn't tried to stop her, she would have.

02/01/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Vyrin
Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city. If you claim that it was a valid military target then the same is true of Orgrimmar.

Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.

Garrosh gave Theramore time to get the civilians out and the military in, Jaina was not about to do the same for Orgrimmar. She wanted to kill the children. She even said so.
Again, she didn't do it because other people had to talk her out of it. It wasn't from her own actions or thoughts that stopped her. It was Thrall's and Kalec's. If they hadn't tried to stop her, she would have.


Hint: That Arcane Energy from the Mana Bomb wasn't exactly helping her either. She didn't do it and if you read the book her thoughts eventually came to reason..

Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.

Garrosh gave Theramore time to get the civilians out and the military in, Jaina was not about to do the same for Orgrimmar. She wanted to kill the children. She even said so.


Garrosh wasn't even considering the children. It was only through Baine's own kin that saved the civillians. I'm also going to say you're preaching to the choir by responding.
02/01/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Vyrin
Just because you didn't like it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


It did happen, but it occupies a dubious spot in the canon where not only was it phenomenally out of character but no explanation for it is offered.

A: Emotional appeal notwithstanding, Jaina did attempt genocide, seeing as almost all the Orcs were right there in Orgrimmar. Rather conveniant way to simply snuff the whole lot of them, rather than just targeting Horde military sites, or specific parts of Orgrimmar, don't you think?

B: The Cold War was immensely idiotic. Wiping out the entire human species just because of a single bomb being dropped is all kinds moronic.

C: There is a difference between taking out a military target and wiping out an entire species because of butthurt.


A) Er, what? Are you claiming that every single Orc was in Orgrimmar? That's insane. The deployment of a weapon of mass destruction isn't automatically genocidal just because it causes mass destruction.

B) You don't understand the Cold War at all.

C) Jaina never came close to wiping out an entire species nor was it ever her goal to wipe out an entire species. Her goal was to do to the Horde what the Horde did to her. Which she should have done. If someone uses a weapon of mass destruction on you then you're well within your rights to respond in kind.


A) Almost every Orc, or at least the majority of them, live in Orgrimmar. Wiping it out would kill most of the Orcish species. Therefore, genocide via WMD.

B) Oh, I understand the whole "retaliate through proxy wars" and such. Massive retaliation is one thing, wiping out a race is another.

C) Yes, she did. She attempted to wipe out the Orcs, and fully agreed with her genocidal daddy about killing the "aberrations". Also, using a WMD on a largly civilian target is different than wiping out a military target.
02/01/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Vyrin
Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city. If you claim that it was a valid military target then the same is true of Orgrimmar.


Both were valid military targets, however both were also filled with civilians. I don't consider what Garrosh did a war crime anymore than what I considered what Jaina should have done to Orgrimmar one.

Both cities had barracks, and docks, that were used for troop transport, and though both had civilians many of them were in fact employed to work on the means to make war. So yeah...if she would have turned Orgrimmar into a lake then things would have gone a lot smoother.
Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city. If you claim that it was a valid military target then the same is true of Orgrimmar.


Both were valid military targets, however both were also filled with civilians. I don't consider what Garrosh did a war crime anymore than what I considered what Jaina should have done to Orgrimmar one.

Both cities had barracks, and docks, that were used for troop transport, and though both had civilians many of them were in fact employed to work on the means to make war. So yeah...if she would have turned Orgrimmar into a lake then things would have gone a lot smoother.


It was still wrong and things would not have been smoother. A lot of Alliance men would be dead as well so you are incorrect.
02/01/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Valius
Hint: That Arcane Energy from the Mana Bomb wasn't exactly helping her either. She didn't do it and if you read the book her thoughts eventually came to reason..


What was her reasoning in Dalaran then? She was killing any Blood Elf that fought to stay in their home. Not all of them helped with Theramore, not all of them helped with the Divine Bell. It was maybe 4 Blood Elves total between both events.

But no, she decided any who wanted to stay and fight for their home died. Not freezing, and putting in jail or expelling, but killed.

And Varessa and Jaina full well said they were killing any who fought.

Clearly, months later, this could not have been mana-bomb influenced? Jaina is bat-!@#$ crazy now, and the only thing that is going to stop her from being bat-%^-* crazy is death.
02/01/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Vyrin
Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city.


Aside from the fact that all of them - Or very nearly all of them - Were gone by the time the bomb was dropped.

02/01/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Vyrin
Theramore was a military target but Orgrimmar wasn't? What is with this bollocks double-standard coming from Horde fanboys?


It's coming from Blizzard, actually.

"Theramore was completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape."
02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
Hint: That Arcane Energy from the Mana Bomb wasn't exactly helping her either. She didn't do it and if you read the book her thoughts eventually came to reason..


What was her reasoning in Dalaran then? She was killing any Blood Elf that fought to stay in their home. Not all of them helped with Theramore, not all of them helped with the Divine Bell. It was maybe 4 Blood Elves total between both events.

But no, she decided any who wanted to stay and fight for their home died. Not freezing, and putting in jail or expelling, but killed.

And Varessa and Jaina full well said they were killing any who fought.

Clearly, months later, this could not have been mana-bomb influenced? Jaina is bat-!@#$ crazy now, and the only thing that is going to stop her from being bat-%^-* crazy is death.


She isn't bat !@#$ crazy. Stop making this about how I feel about her. I don't like what she did in Dalaran but we don't need to go over it. She isn't bad this crazy, she is just very angry and I'm not fond of it. Death is not the answer for her. Did we kill Varian for getting uber angry? No we didn't.
02/01/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Valius
She isn't bat !@#$ crazy. Stop making this about how I feel about her. I don't like what she did in Dalaran but we don't need to go over it. She isn't bad this crazy, she is just very angry and I'm not fond of it. Death is not the answer for her. Did we kill Varian for getting uber angry? No we didn't.


No where in that post did I make it about your feelings about her.

Varian, also learned. Jaina has gone from being what Varian was in Wrath, to almost Garrosh levels. She wants the Horde crushed to the point that they will never be able to fight again.
02/01/2013 12:41 PMPosted by Valius


What was her reasoning in Dalaran then? She was killing any Blood Elf that fought to stay in their home. Not all of them helped with Theramore, not all of them helped with the Divine Bell. It was maybe 4 Blood Elves total between both events.

But no, she decided any who wanted to stay and fight for their home died. Not freezing, and putting in jail or expelling, but killed.

And Varessa and Jaina full well said they were killing any who fought.

Clearly, months later, this could not have been mana-bomb influenced? Jaina is bat-!@#$ crazy now, and the only thing that is going to stop her from being bat-%^-* crazy is death.


She isn't bat !@#$ crazy. Stop making this about how I feel about her. I don't like what she did in Dalaran but we don't need to go over it. She isn't bad this crazy, she is just very angry and I'm not fond of it. Death is not the answer for her. Did we kill Varian for getting uber angry? No we didn't.


I hate characters that are angry all the time. If they aren't a Sith Lord, they have no reason to be all pissed off 24/7. Jaina needs to calm down, and listen to Varian, or Anduin.
02/01/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Valius


Both were valid military targets, however both were also filled with civilians. I don't consider what Garrosh did a war crime anymore than what I considered what Jaina should have done to Orgrimmar one.

Both cities had barracks, and docks, that were used for troop transport, and though both had civilians many of them were in fact employed to work on the means to make war. So yeah...if she would have turned Orgrimmar into a lake then things would have gone a lot smoother.


It was still wrong and things would not have been smoother. A lot of Alliance men would be dead as well so you are incorrect.


So? The greater goal of a completely disorganized Horde would have taken precedent over the lives of a few sailors and soldiers. Hell if Varian agreed to it he could have let Jaina continue her plan he could have even organized a mission to rescue any survivors with the Alliance navy.
She isn't bat !@#$ crazy. Stop making this about how I feel about her. I don't like what she did in Dalaran but we don't need to go over it. She isn't bad this crazy, she is just very angry and I'm not fond of it. Death is not the answer for her. Did we kill Varian for getting uber angry? No we didn't.


No where in that post did I make it about your feelings about her.

Varian, also learned. Jaina has gone from being what Varian was in Wrath, to almost Garrosh levels. She wants the Horde crushed to the point that they will never be able to fight again.


Yeah and Jaina hasn't been given a chance. Why should we condemn Jaina but be ok with Varian. Again you brought up the feelings I have about Jaina originally in the argument so please keep it out. This IMO doesn't need to be discussed anymore because it's really redundant. I'd rather talk about flying cows at this point.

So? The greater goal of a completely disorganized Horde would have taken precedent over the lives of a few sailors and soldiers. Hell if Varian agreed to it he could have let Jaina continue her plan he could have even organized a mission to rescue any survivors with the Alliance navy.


No Varian had no idea about Jaina's plans. Fel Varian's fleet would of been wiped out. IT WAS THE WRONG DECISION. Why do you think Kalec took Jaina to Orgrimmar and near Bladefist Bay? To remind her of how consequential the decision was.
02/01/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Fylane
She was killing any Blood Elf that fought to stay in their home.


By that time, Jaina was the legitimately elected leader of the Kirin Tor. All citizens of Dalaran, blood elves included, owed her their allegiance. If she tells them to go to the Violet Hold (for whatever reason), then by law they are obligated to go to the Violet Hold. By refusing to obey their sovereign - or worse, taking up arms against her - they were guilty of treason against the kingdom. That's punishable by death.


She isn't bat !@#$ crazy. Stop making this about how I feel about her. I don't like what she did in Dalaran but we don't need to go over it. She isn't bad this crazy, she is just very angry and I'm not fond of it. Death is not the answer for her. Did we kill Varian for getting uber angry? No we didn't.


I hate characters that are angry all the time. If they aren't a Sith Lord, they have no reason to be all pissed off 24/7. Jaina needs to calm down, and listen to Varian, or Anduin.


No...she doesn't. It's fine for her to be angry. She has every right to be. Theramore was her home for years. She was responsible for it's people and their safety. Saying to have all that wiped out in an instant by the mana bomb was devastating to her and she has a right to seethe with righteous indignation.

Hell I want more characters like Jaina. People who realize that you can't make peace with everyone out there or that fighting may be the only valid answer. Right now the only way to end this war is to take out Garrosh(and possibly Sylvanas) as well as cripple the Horde's ability to make war. People like Anduin, don't realize that, and subsequently when they try to implement their own peaceful plans wind up paying for it in spades.

There is a time for talk and a time for fighting. This is a time to fight.
By that time, Jaina was the legitimately elected leader of the Kirin Tor. All citizens of Dalaran, blood elves included, owed her their allegiance. If she tells them to go to the Violet Hold (for whatever reason), then by law they are obligated to go to the Violet Hold. By refusing to obey their sovereign - or worse, taking up arms against her - they were guilty of treason against the kingdom. That's punishable by death.


Is Dalaran not run by a council of 6?

Not all Blood Elves helped with stealing the bell. She could have confronted Aethas first (he had no part in it) but no, she decided imprisonment to all.

Hell, Horde-side, you don't even step one foot in Dalaran until the Purge. (Bad writing on Blizzard's fault) You take a portal from Dominance Point to Darnassus, then back to Dominance Point.

02/01/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Valius
Again you brought up the feelings I have about Jaina originally in the argument so please keep it out


I brought it up once, you're the one who keeps bringing it up again.

02/01/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Valius
Yeah and Jaina hasn't been given a chance. Why should we condemn Jaina but be ok with Varian.

Jaina has been on a spiraling course of destruction since Theramore. Varian gradually got better, she's getting worse.
I hate characters that are angry all the time. If they aren't a Sith Lord, they have no reason to be all pissed off 24/7. Jaina needs to calm down, and listen to Varian, or Anduin.


No duh? You think I want her to stay angry all the time? I'd rather sit on the Sha of Anger and bring him to school then that.

Jaina has been on a spiraling course of destruction since Theramore. Varian gradually got better, she's getting worse.


And I can guarentee she won't go nuts. You are advocating she is and want to.
02/01/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Fylane
And she didn't do it. She doesn't need to be demonized in hind sight of what she did or almost did. Nobody liked it(Reasonable ones).


Again, she didn't do it because other people had to talk her out of it. It wasn't from her own actions or thoughts that stopped her. It was Thrall's and Kalec's. If they hadn't tried to stop her, she would have.

Theramore was a city with civilians and normal people just like every other city. If you claim that it was a valid military target then the same is true of Orgrimmar.

Theramore was a military target, it was a launching point for the Alliance in Mid-southern Kalimdor. Orgrimmar is a city, full of civilians, children and is the cultural hub of the Orcs.

Garrosh gave Theramore time to get the civilians out and the military in, Jaina was not about to do the same for Orgrimmar. She wanted to kill the children. She even said so.


Garrosh didn't give them time to get the civvies out. He could care less about civilians, all he cared about was the Alliance bringing their brightest and best to defend Theramore.

And Orgrimmar is just as much a military target as Theramore was since it's the SEAT OF HORDE POWER ON THE PLANET. Civilians or no, if someone was to drop a nuke on your home and you survive somehow are you going to care about THEIR civilians if you have a chance at payback?

Also, all of that is a moot point since Jaina ALMOST committed an atrocity whereas Garrosh DID commit one.

The ALliance modus operandi has always been one about retaliating. You can count on one finger the times the Alliance has struck first...and that guy had his own daughter turn against him.

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