Set bonuses come too late in 10 mans

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
To give you guys an idea of the differences in gearing in 10 mans vs 25 mans:

- In Firelands, it took me 11-12 kills of Majordomo to finally complete my Mage's 4-set with Majordomo's shoulders.

- In Patch 5.1, my Warlock just finally got his 4-set after 12 kills of Amber Shaper Un'sok.

I get my 4-set at a point where we have already killed what we're going to kill this tier. I don't expect that we will down any more heroic bosses, so the fact that I now have a 4-set is pretty much useless for this tier.

I expect it's going to be useless after the first couple of weeks in 5.2 as well, since the item level difference is going to be too large to not upgrade.

My understanding is that most people in 25-man raids that can at least clear normal content have their 4-sets within a few weeks, so that 4-sets are actually relevant for progression.
I suspect 10 and 25 mans are already being balanced around their relative gearing rates. Fights that are tight dps checks tend to be tight dps checks on both difficulties despite the differences in gearing rates.
Uhm, so this whole thread boils down to "RNG is RNG," gotcha. Way too many words for something so simple.
02/03/2013 11:07 PMPosted by Naumu
Uhm, so this whole thread boils down to "RNG is RNG," gotcha. Way too many words for something so simple.

No. It boils down to:

"Set bonuses in 10 mans come too late to be useful, and that doesn't feel right."

The topic is intended as feedback for those who make design choices for the game.

But thanks for the bump.
"Set bonuses in 10 mans come too late to be useful, and that doesn't feel right."

The topic is intended as feedback for those who make design choices for the game.


I got shoulders from my second or third 10 man kill on Domo, RNG is RNG. There are still some people who barely have 2PC at this point, RNG is RNG. So yes, it boils down to "RNG is RNG" but nice try.
"Set bonuses in 10 mans come too late to be useful, and that doesn't feel right."

The topic is intended as feedback for those who make design choices for the game.

This is one of those basically intractable issues in 10 vs. 25 man. 10 mans will pretty much by definition be more subject to loot rng then 25 mans unless some changes are made to 10 man loot. Changes to make systems more intelligent tend to open avenues for gaming the system which I suspect Blizzard would rather avoid.
As much as I love this thread, I think we had 1 pair of conq shoulders off domo in about 2 dozen kills, so about 1/4th of our raid never had a chance, btw, this is 25. Surprisingly, when 25's kill a boss, we dont magically get every single loot piece available off the boss.

02/03/2013 10:46 PMPosted by Elocyn
My understanding is that most people in 25-man raids that can at least clear normal content have their 4-sets within a few weeks, so that 4-sets are actually relevant for progression.


your understanding is incorrect, we don't magically get full gear instantly, we're subject to the same RNG as you.
RNG happens, 10 man tier is in a better place then it has ever been with extra rolls and the fact that you could get 2 piece before the raid instances were even open.
I think 2 weeks ago we had 3 Vanq tokens drop off Sha. Then this week we had 3 Conq tokens. And we've been doing a fair bit of recruiting lately, so there are people who need the gear.

RNG is...RNG?

Also, I don't really get where this post is going. What do you want done about this situation? If it helps, you could think of the 4pc as an initial boost when T15 starts. Maybe then you'll get the kills fast enough that you'll have the 4pc in time for it to matter?
While its certainly possible for a 10 man to gear up faster than a 25 man, its fairly rare since the 25 mans are designed to gear up faster overall. I think equating all systems with random elements is a bit of an oversimplification. That said, the game has never guaranteed that anyone will get full tier or BiS or whatever by the end of the tier.

I always kinda liked the idea of universal tokens, but without every token being universal. Like, make another boss instead of Sha of Fear drop the helm token, and Sha of Fear would drop a universal token. Most of your tier comes from standard tokens, but it makes sure that the end boss drops something useful until its been on farm for a very long time, and makes sure that no one gets completely screwed over on tier. It was always a little disappointing to kill an end boss and shard every drop. Something like Essence of the Forlorn from tier 11, basically.
02/04/2013 12:22 AMPosted by Zakigga
What do you want done about this situation?

Perhaps there could be a separate loot system for set gear, that would be overall less susceptible to RNG.

Why design set bonuses, with class-specific perks, when only lucky players of said classes get to enjoy them? It seems like a waste of effort in design, and a disappointment for the unlucky players.

If you get an item that's your 2nd or 3rd BiS, instead of your 1st BiS, but it only boils down to different stats, that's no biggie. But if you never get to enjoy an altered class mechanic that was intended for your class during that tier, that feels like being left out.

It also feels weird that bosses drop pieces that work together as a set to help you defeat them. Why would a collection of tough enemies coordinate to craft gear that will work for you like that?

It would make more sense if tier gear was sold by a friendly faction specific to the raid tier, perhaps in exchange for a boss's left eyebrow or ear.
If you get an item that's your 2nd or 3rd BiS, instead of your 1st BiS, but it only boils down to different stats, that's no a biggie. But if you never get to enjoy an altered class mechanic that was intended for your class during that tier, that feels like being left out.

Well, it's a good thing that we can run LFR for set pieces!
02/04/2013 12:33 AMPosted by Somewhat
Well, it's a good thing that we can run LFR for set pieces!

Well, no. I can justify downgrading one piece from 509 to 496, but not another piece to 483.
Did you sim it? It's probably an upgrade.


It also feels weird that bosses drop pieces that work together as a set to help you defeat them. Why would a collection of tough enemies coordinate to craft for themselves gear that will end up working for you like that?

It would make more sense if tier gear was sold by a friendly faction specific to the raid encounter, perhaps in exchange for a boss's left eyebrow or ear.


Why does almost every boss in the game have loot at all, let alone armor that actually fits the people in the raid when the boss is twelve times your size?

There is no reason to try to bring logic into this.

Besides, the tier gear IS sold by a vendor. You just get the Macguffin that convinces them you are awesome enough to give it to you from the boss.
02/04/2013 12:39 AMPosted by Asthas
Besides, the tier gear IS sold by a vendor. You just get the Macguffin that convinces them you are awesome enough to give it to you from the boss.

Right, true.

I'm in favor of spreading the Macguffins more predictably.
I don't know about universal tokens, seems a little too much like the Firelands firestones or whatever. When you have tokens that can be used by anyone, it becomes a bit harder to distribute them fairly, and eventually someone gets butthurt and guild drama ensues. To be clear, I blame the raiders more than the actual gear, but still.

If you're so keyed in on the set bonuses, you can keep killing it and get it, there's probably about a month and a half left til 5.2. I mean, I just feel like of all the aspects of raiding, how fast you get a set bonus is one of the lowest in terms of redesign priority. Helms and shoulders come late in the raids. My 4pc was one of the last things I achieved, only upgrading my bracers since I believe.

Don't get me wrong, set bonuses are generally cool and give a little DPS boost. But I don't believe raid encounters are balanced around having them.

RNG is still...RNG?
As much as I love this thread, I think we had 1 pair of conq shoulders off domo in about 2 dozen kills, so about 1/4th of our raid never had a chance, btw, this is 25. Surprisingly, when 25's kill a boss, we dont magically get every single loot piece available off the boss.


1. We had a two month protector chest streak in DS. Many more smaller streaks. At a point it just got funny our ele/resto sham had his enh 4 pc before some people had main spec 4 pc.

2. Liar. If you kill a boss on 25 half your raid auto gets full bis
02/04/2013 02:12 AMPosted by Ðemolition
2. Liar. If you kill a boss on 25 half your raid auto gets full bis


Pft, half? try all of it!
I just got my 4pc last sunday;
I went from a straight no tier bonus what so ever to 4pc.

I was doing just fine without it including ranking multiple times or getting high percentiles.

Gear isn't a means to an end;
It's the reward for hitting that end.

If you seriously need gear to kill a boss outside maybe the first few weeks due to a very very select few bosses being stupidly tight...
You need to improve your play. Not your gear.
(And these bosses are always patchwerk anyways with guilds downing them in the absolute minimum gear.)

And you stopped killing new bosses?
What do you even need more gear for then?

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