Ret paladins need to wake up!

Paladin
Ghostcrawler/Greg said that in order to buff sustained damage for rets we would have to take away from their burst, which we don't think paladins want.

Ok, cool. Just make the numbers the same amount of damage as Warriors because they have an almost identical spell as we do called "AVATAR".

It gives warriors a 20% damage increase. Hmm, what does avenging wrath give us?

Yet do you see them saying that they want to nerf the warriors sustained damage? Not at all.

thats fine too. Just toon our sustained damage to theirs. I mean give us the same amount of damage output. That seems fair right?

not the them, they want to nerf our burst first? what?

Ret paladins, wake up, have your voices heard over this.
02/05/2013 01:15 PMPosted by Addypally
Yet do you see them saying that they want to nerf the warriors sustained damage? Not at all.
But they are. Taste for Blood has been redesigned. It now causes the Warrior to gain 2 stacks of Overpower (maximum of 5 stacks) when Mortal Strike deals damage, 1 stack when the target dodges, and no longer interacts with Heroic Strike. Previously, when TFB affected the damage of heroic strike, it allowed the use a fairly-bursty ability in conjunction with another ability. This is a nerf to burst. Overpower now also costs rage which can limit the use of overpower in conjunction with heroic strike with the removal of deadly calm.

Aside from the nerf to burst, they are nerfing CC and defensives.
See:
Shield Barrier now scales approximately 10% less efficiently with attack power.
Defensive Stance now reduces damage by 15% (was 25%).

See: Shockwave now has a 40 second cooldown (was 20 seconds), and striking 3 or more targets will reduce its cooldown by 20 seconds.
Warbringer now reduces the target's movement by 50% for 15 seconds (8 seconds in PvP), in addition to its other effects. The 3 second stun/knockdown is now in the diminishing returns category for stuns (same as Shockwave and Storm Bolt), and not the proc stun diminishing returns category.
Ok, cool. Just make the numbers the same amount of damage as Warriors because they have an almost identical spell as we do called "AVATAR".

It gives warriors a 20% damage increase. Hmm, what does avenging wrath give us?


Theirs is a talent, ours is free

Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.

And they nerfed their burst. And didnt give them sustained.
02/05/2013 02:15 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
And didnt give them sustained.
Well, they did. Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage). One way or another though, they are good changes.
02/05/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Halliphix
Well, they did. Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage). One way or another though, they are good changes.


Well not enough sustained i should say to offset the nerf.
02/05/2013 02:20 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
Well, they did. Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage). One way or another though, they are good changes.


Well not enough sustained i should say to offset the nerf.
Sudden Death now has a 25% chance to activate from Overpower instead of a 20% chance from auto attacks. In addition, using Execute makes Overpower free for 10 seconds. With the addition of this, it may suffice.
02/05/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Halliphix
Sudden Death now has a 25% chance to activate from Overpower instead of a 20% chance from auto attacks. In addition, using Execute makes Overpower free for 10 seconds. With the addition of this, it may suffice.


Possibly, and it might, though It may or may not have been their intention to keep their overall damage the same for Arms, I think they were intending to lower it across the board as well as tone down their burst
02/05/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
Sudden Death now has a 25% chance to activate from Overpower instead of a 20% chance from auto attacks. In addition, using Execute makes Overpower free for 10 seconds. With the addition of this, it may suffice.


Possibly, and it might, though It may or may not have been their intention to keep their overall damage the same for Arms, I think they were intending to lower it across the board as well as tone down their burst
I don't believe that was their intention. I have a feeling that arms will still be in a good position next season either way.
02/05/2013 02:19 PMPosted by Halliphix
And didnt give them sustained.
Well, they did. Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage). One way or another though, they are good changes.


^
02/05/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Addypally
Well, they did. Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage). One way or another though, they are good changes.


^
What about it? They're compensated just as we would be? Everything looks in order. Their burst is nerfed, consistent buffed, just as ours would be.
Why are you comparing a hybrid class damage vs a straight damage class? That alone makes your argument invalid.
02/06/2013 03:16 AMPosted by Judaäs
Why are you comparing a hybrid class damage vs a straight damage class? That alone makes your argument invalid.


Warrior is not a pure dps class.
02/06/2013 03:16 AMPosted by Judaäs
Why are you comparing a hybrid class damage vs a straight damage class? That alone makes your argument invalid.


Insert quote from Billy Madison here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
These calls for ret to do more damage are beyond unimaginative. Just as unimaginative as ret design has been. The reason they can't fix anything is precisely because of this '30 seconds of god mode/snooze the rest of the time' design, which they need to completely get away from if the class is to move forward.
Why are you comparing a hybrid class damage vs a straight damage class? That alone makes your argument invalid.


Warrior is not a pure dps class.
No class in WoW is 'pure'. At all. They're all amalgamations. A rogue can cc; a rogue is not a 'pure' class. These designations, roles and restrictions are arbitrary and hold back design.
No class in WoW is 'pure'. At all. They're all amalgamations. A rogue can cc; a rogue is not a 'pure' class. These restrictions are arbitrary and hold back design.


Rogues are pure, just like mages and locks.

Warriors (and DKs) are hybrids, they have both dps and tank specs. People confuse "hybrid" with "can heal." Hybrid has nothing to do with whether a class can cast heals or not, simply whether or not it has multiple roles. CC is not a role.
02/06/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Cayse
No class in WoW is 'pure'. At all. They're all amalgamations. A rogue can cc; a rogue is not a 'pure' class. These restrictions are arbitrary and hold back design.


Rogues are pure, just like mages and locks.

Warriors (and DKs) are hybrids, they have both dps and tank specs. People confuse "hybrid" with "can heal." Hybrid has nothing to do with whether a class can cast heals or not, simply whether or not it has multiple roles. CC is not a role.
Nobody makes the mistake of calling anything a pure or a hybrid or justifying their wrong definition except apparently WoW players. Pure and hybrid have definitions set forth in much older rpg games and in D&D. Rogues, hunters, mages, locks in WoW; they're all hybrids as they mash together various 'pure' mechanics with 'hybrid' classes like Trappers and Lurkers and Mezzers. Hybrid has nothing to do with what role you can put a check mark next to, that's a limit specific to WoW system design.
Nobody makes the mistake of calling anything a pure or a hybrid or justifying their wrong definition except apparently WoW players. Pure and hybrid have definitions set forth in much older rpg games and in D&D. Rogues, hunters, mages, locks in WoW; they're all hybrids as they mash together various 'pure' mechanics with 'hybrid' classes like Trappers and Lurkers and Mezzers. Hybrid has nothing to do with what role you can put a check mark next to, that's a limit specific to WoW system design.


We're not talking about D&D though, we're talking about World of Warcraft and their definitions of "Pure" and "Hybrid"

Why even bring it up?
D&D is the source of the holy trinity of roles. It's called the holy trinity for a reason and basically every MMO and RPG use it.

People make the mistake of thinking that only healing-capable classes are hybrids.
We arguing semantics again?

WoW =/= D&D, no matter how much it steals its material from D&D (sorry WoW devs. :P)

I'm not pulling out the GC post that explained it, but you can look for yourself - Hybrid classes are classes that can perform multiple roles, be it heal/dps or tank/dps (or all three). Pures, by WoW definition, are classes that can only deal damage.

Nor are they actively balanced around this anymore; the utility that each class brings is what separates them.

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