Less Burst More Sustained? Or Status Quo?

Paladin
All I hear Greg say is that we (Ret Paladins) have summarily decided we want burst to stay the same and sustained to be low like always. However, I'll I've seen from this board is how we'd like the opposite.

So I'm asking you know. Post below what you would prefer and I'll personally tweet this link to Greg himself and ask him to take a look at it.

This is with regards to both PVP and PvE. Post your thought below.
02/05/2013 12:05 PMPosted by Phelan
All I hear Greg say is that we (Ret Paladins) have summarily decided we want burst to stay the same and sustained to be low like always.


Thats not what he said.

They think that we're in a good spot overall, therefore to buff our sustain, they'd have to nerf our burst, which they really dont want to do.

Because any flat % buffs to our abilities in the spirit of sustained, would inevitably buff our burst as well.

Therefore they're looking for ways to buff sustained (if needed) without affecting, or minimally affecting our burst.

So really all they could do, to make the least impact of our burst, is to buff Censure, or passive things like that.
If you read GS twitter. He said if we wanted a buff to our sustained we'd have to nerf burst and apparently that's not what the community wanted.

So apparently it's off the agenda table...from the lions mouth.

Go on MMO and read the tweets for yourself.
They're just worried about the outcry if our burst was nerfed, even if it meant our damage went up. Loud idiots like big flashy numbers.
If you read GS twitter. He said if we wanted a buff to our sustained we'd have to nerf burst and apparently that's not what the community wanted.


Of course thats not what the 'community' wants, they dont want a trade-off, they want a straight buff.

If they lowered our burst cooldowns to buff our sustained in a reasonable manner it would pretty much be "Meh pushing this button sucks, doesnt do enough. WHERES MY BIG NUMBERS RAWRG"

02/05/2013 12:21 PMPosted by Cayse
They're just worried about the outcry if our burst was nerfed, even if it meant our damage went up. Loud idiots like big flashy numbers.


Catch 22, burst is more effective for PVP, sustained more effective for PVE. Cant buff one without pissing the other off. Has to be a balance.
So what's the solution? It seems were at an impasse.

Look, a DK and War have burst and sustained. I know we're a different beast but as a DPS spec we can't get away from the primary function of Ret is to do dmg.

Its funny, every time I pick up berserker buff in BGs I really finally feel like that's the way Ret should be. Honestly, I'd throw away HA for a straight up 30% buff.
Look, a DK and War have burst and sustained. I know we're a different beast but as a DPS spec we can't get away from the primary function of Ret is to do dmg.


We need both

What level each one should be at is the problem.
[quote]

Catch 22, burst is more effective for PVP, sustained more effective for PVE. Cant buff one without pissing the other off. Has to be a balance.


To be honest, Burst is not that great for PVP because of it's long CDs. Most just save their CC for when they see a Ret go off (smart ones anyway). It's a very unforgiving 3 shell shotgun.
Arenas it might be advantageous but in BG's when you get the players respawning all the time....not so much. Eventually you're always stuck with a long down time hopefully when you're 'not needed'.
Here's a thought.

Give us back HoF on stun. That won't buff our DPS but will allow us to apply more of it when it's up. Also it will keep us on the offensive more so yes a DPS Buff to sustain.
Here's a thought.

Give us back HoF on stun. That won't buff our DPS but will allow us to apply more of it when it's up. Also it will keep us on the offensive more so yes a DPS Buff to sustain.


I see this a lot, its not a bad idea. Makes more sense to put it back on that or Salv than Sac to be honest.

Sac has a completely different use than the others do.
To be honest I see casters get really messed up through rogue and wars stuns. Something like this would be truly be a caster saver.

RET ONLY....sorry Holy but you've got enough CC to need another counter CC.
Catch 22, burst is more effective for PVP, sustained more effective for PVE. Cant buff one without pissing the other off. Has to be a balance.
Overall, burst is being nerfed while sustained is being buffed universally. Take a gander at the patch notes for multiple classes. Reduced effect of cooldowns and reduced cooldowns.
02/05/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
All I hear Greg say is that we (Ret Paladins) have summarily decided we want burst to stay the same and sustained to be low like always.


Thats not what he said.

They think that we're in a good spot overall, therefore to buff our sustain, they'd have to nerf our burst, which they really dont want to do.

Because any flat % buffs to our abilities in the spirit of sustained, would inevitably buff our burst as well.

Therefore they're looking for ways to buff sustained (if needed) without affecting, or minimally affecting our burst.

So really all they could do, to make the least impact of our burst, is to buff Censure, or passive things like that.


Bro, wake up.

You do realize that they gave warriors an ability almost exactly the same as our "burst ability" right?

they have a spell called avatar that gives them 20% damage increase. And they use their trinkets just like we do to add to damage.

the difference? they have great sustained damage and we don't making them more viable than us. Thats the flat out truth.

Do you see Ghostcrawler/Greg trying to nerf their sustained? No.

Its completely bias and ret paladins need to wake up.
02/05/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
They're just worried about the outcry if our burst was nerfed, even if it meant our damage went up. Loud idiots like big flashy numbers.


Catch 22, burst is more effective for PVP, sustained more effective for PVE. Cant buff one without pissing the other off. Has to be a balance.


But pvp only needs enough burst. With the amount of toning down that burst is getting, ret with guardian/AW/HA up is very high on the burst scale, higher than it needs to be.

A sustained buff, even with a burst nerf so that our general dps remains even, isn't going to stop ret from getting kills. It may even make them easier if our sustained is enough to make people actually feel pressured.
Just like the PVP trinkets...
But pvp only needs enough burst. With the amount of toning down that burst is getting, ret with guardian/AW/HA up is very high on the burst scale, higher than it needs to be.


Perhaps this is true, if the sustained buff makes the lowered burst still matter when you need to burst (more sustained damage to not need as much burst, but still burst to finish the job)

02/05/2013 01:09 PMPosted by Addypally
Bro, wake up.


Bro, tinfoil hat too tight

You're comparing not one 2 completely different classes, you're comparing a baseline skill to a talent.
02/05/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
So really all they could do, to make the least impact of our burst, is to buff Censure, or passive things like that.


Censure gets 20% from AW, 30% from Inquisition and ~18% from GoAK; a total increase of almost 85% - disconsidering that the 10% critical chance from Inquisition virtually double ours critic rating (or 42% without Inquisition).

Templar's Veredict is actually the least affected skill by our CDs (~38-41% with Inquisition, 28% without it), it even scales WAY less with strength increases from enchants and trinkets procs than most of our abilities (only 30% of the actual str increase), so if you want to buff our sustained without affecting our burst too much, begin with that.

I actually think they should remove GoAK, and use the gap it leaves for buffing our sustained damage. Better yet, rework it as a defensive/offensive skill (kinda like Avatar was, but instead of soft cc immunity, it would work as a fear immunity with certain damage mitigation, or better yet, a retribution aura-like ability - since GC doesnt want it on a passive/aura-like ability again - which can actually make the "train the ret" strategy less efficiently, kinda like Temporal Shield from mages, but instead of healing -> damage reflected; and instead of 20% increase in damage, it would make all our damage, Holy; kinda like Ascendance).

The problem with ret PvP isnt really sustained damage (it is low though - even PvE people complain about it), but more about delivering it, even though most of our damage can be done far from melee range. Our burst damage get even worse, since the second we pop our CDs, is "train-the-ret time" or "cc the ret to the oblivion time".

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